Jordan: In their own words

At last week’s protest I interviewed Ibrahim Alos (IA), who spoke about the weekly picket near the Israeli Embassy (or Zionist Embassy as it is referred to here), amongst other topics. Following is the full transcript of that interview, plus an interview conducted at Thursday night’s picket with Nawal, one of the women who has attended every week, rail, hail or shine, to express her anger with Israel’s presence in Jordan

First off, I asked Ibrahim if it was okay to record him, and to use his name.

IA: I’ve already been arrested a couple of times, so no problem.

JWP: Can you tell me your name, and what you do?

IA: Ibrahim Alos, university professor, activist, and writer.

JWP: And what is your involvement in the protest movement?

IA: Well, I am involved in the protest movement on several levels, for one thing we have been doing a weekly protest in front of the Zionist Embassy here in Amman on Thursday evening. Last night we finished the 51st weekly protest against the Zionist Embassy, first we did it daily then we did it weekly and we have been going for about eleven months now, and that’s one thing. For you know there are three areas of protest here in Jordan, three issues that galvanise the protest movement. One pertains to the constitutional issue, democracy and constitutional change. The second pertains to economic issues, globalisation and the privatisation of the public sector, the unfair and unjust tax code, and the third issue pertains to the relationship with Israel and the Wadi Araba Treaty. I’ve been active especially on the third issue but also I’ve been attending the weekly protests here in downtown Amman every since it began about eight or nine weeks ago, and I’ve been active on the net and other areas.

Demands

JWP: What are your principle demands?

IA: I wouldn’t say that the movement as a whole has one uniform and crystalised platform, especially because it’s sort of spontaneous and because when it is organised, and it is not always organised, it is organised by umbrella groups that include several groups with different agendas more or less. However that is not to say that they disagree on the principles. For example, different people talk about constitutional change. Some demand the return to the constitution of 1952, some demand the implementation of the current constitution which they see as being just for show, some demand a sweeping constitutional change that would turn this into a monarchy not dissimilar to England, where the King reigns but doesn’t rule. So if you talk to people you might think that you are listening to different things, however the common thread between all those people is that they all want more decision-making power in their public affairs, no matter how you look at it. Some think they want to get everything now, some think “Let’s get this little small step and then we can build on that” so basically they follow different strategies, however they are all going after the same objective.

Economic Issues
Some are only economic issues, some talk about dependency, globalisation, about the ruling elite and how they subscribe to comprador status, meaning they are just following or being mediators between the west, specifically imperialism, I don’t want to use that kind of jargon here because the movement here is much larger than the left, but when it comes to economic issues the leftist terminology is predominant. But people would demand the nationalisation of privatised public institutions, they would demand a more just tax code, but even if this or that person disagrees with this or that demand the common thread is that they want more economic justice, so you can say that.

Israel’s drive to make Jordan a Substitute Homeland for Palestinians
Same thing with regards to the Wadi Araba Treaty and the relationship with the Zionist entity in Palestine – people might say different things, but the common thread is that people are not happy with the state of affairs between Jordan and the Zionist entity given that it is an entity occupying Palestine, and threatening Jordan with many things.

JWP: What are the specific threats?

IA: Well, here you come into a tricky area, but I would say that there are groups, not small groups, not marginal groups, within Israel who have been calling for turning Jordan into a substitute homeland for Palestinians. Now that’s a threat, because you are not only talking about overthrowing the monarchy, which is a threat to the monarchy but not necessarily to the common people, but it’s also a threat to the Palestinians because that means they will be losing their homeland permanently, and it’s a threat to Jordanians, and moreover this is a threat that foments civil war. Just like you have the Sunnis and Shi’ites in Iraq and the Christians and Muslims in Egypt etc so this is a threat on many levels.

Obstacles to change
JWP: What do you see as the biggest obstacles to change?

IA: The opposition groups, they are spineless, and some of their leaders, to put it mildly, are opportunistic and they would sell out the cause for some perks and privileges for themselves and their parties.

JWP: How receptive do you think the King is to the demands being made by the protestors?

IA: Well, I don’t think we have managed to mount a serious protest yet, to find out. But I think to the extent we have had protests I think the King has been trying to manage the crisis rather than solve the crisis.

JWP: The new Prime Minister, when he was appointed, said that he wanted 60 days in which to implement the reforms that the King was demanding. Do you think that the protestors are willing to wait for 60 days?

IA: We’ve had this Prime Minister before and we’ve seen what he can do, and it’s not very good, 60 days when he’s had a year or two, so like they used to say in America when I was there, this is horseshit.

Nawal

I interviewed Nawal on Thursday 17 March some 500 yards from the Zionist Embassy in Amman – 500 yards away because people are not permitted to gather outside the embassy itself. Entire families were present, and a short video of one of the children leading the chants can be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbafH2FFGiU

JWP: Can you tell me why you are here tonight?

Nawal: Actually we are here to express our feelings and opinions about things we are against in Jordan. We consider that Jordan is part of the Arab world, and this expression is of not accepting an Israeli Embassy in Jordan or in any Arab world because unfortunately what they call a “peace process” is just a plan, a slow plan for occupation, for more occupation, for domination of the economy, of peoples’ opinions, of everything that makes people proud of their country and of themselves. Because of what happened during Oslo and the peace process that took place starting in Egypt and then in Jordan and also with the Palestinian PLO, this big...I can’t say mistake, it is something that has overthrown all our belief in protecting ourselves and in protecting our land. This is an Arab land and there is no peace. When you go into the literature of the Israeli people and the Jewish people in Israel, Zionism, you come out with a conclusion that there is no peace with Israel, there is no peace with Zionism because Zionism has... they come here for a certain purpose and this purpose is to dominate the area. This is an area which is very rich in human resources and which is a very important part of the world, and it is not only Palestine, they are starting with Palestine but their aim and their plan is to go beyond that.

“Buying bullets against yourself”
They have already started to dominate our market. When you go to buy fruit and vegetables, this is what I do and what most of the Jordanians do, you have to ask “Where did you get this from?” because we don’t want to buy Israeli products because this is something as if you are buying bullets against yourself. This is what we consider. That’s why there can be no compromise with this case. The case is either we accept them or we cannot accept them. Accepting them means submitting to their conditions, their rules, their tyranny, and not accepting them is the natural thing because this is our country. They have occupied Palestine piece by piece, and little by little, and whenever they have the chance they will do this again and again as long as we are silent, so we want the people to be aware, and we want the Israelis and Zionism to be aware, that we do not accept them.

Exceptional times
JWP: How long have you been having these protests?

Nawal: This is our 52nd, I think, but it has always been there. The people here are not members of one group or one political group, they are just people who believe in what I have told you, they come on their own and come and stand and support this. Sometimes you have things you want to express, you find people doing it and you just get yourself out of your home and join them.

JWP: I have noticed that a lot of cars driving past toot their horns in support. Do you get a lot of support from the general public?

Nawal: Well, I’m sure. This is a very peaceful and simple activity to express ourselves. I think that now we are living in a very exceptional time, exceptional in the way with uprisings in many parts of the Arab world, even people who did not believe in or did not want to talk politics, they started to be aware there’s something happening and I’m sure we are now living a historical moment in our history and in our world. Definitely this Arab world, which has been fragmented into pieces is one piece of land, with one people and it has always been like that. But with Sykes-Picot and with imperialism and after World War II they fragmented the Arab world into pieces of land, countries, and little by little they deepened, they tried to dig deep into this feeling of regional belonging. I believe the uprising has started to bring the people in the Arab world [to realise] that we are one nation, this is one land. You know, for two months we have been sitting and watching television and sometimes not sleeping for a minute, just to see what is going to happen tomorrow because there is an impact, in the success of one there will be an impact to have success in other places, and we are looking forward to that.

JWP: Are you concerned about the events in Libya and the effect that might have?

Nawal: This leader of Libya has been there for 41 or 42 years, this is not acceptable, this is not acceptable. Libya, which is one of the richest countries of the world, this man is crazy, you know, he doesn’t even want to believe that there are rights that people have, he doesn’t want to believe that enough is enough, for him and his family. What is happening around in the Arab world is a combination of power and wealth. On account of what people should have, there is so much poverty, there is backwardness, the countries need so much to be done and we need that actually, so it is time.

JWP: It is interesting to see so many women here tonight. Are women becoming more involved in the political movement?

Nawal: I think that women have always been involved in this, women after all are mothers, sisters, wives, and whenever they can make it, they do express themselves, as they have the right to.

ENDS

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