Q+A’s Paul Holmes interviews Parliament’s Speaker, Dr Lockwood Smith.
Sunday 9th August 2009:

Points of interest:
- Speaker defends MPs’ private international travel perks: “They deserve it”; says MPs expenses are “sound”
- Details of private international travel won’t be made public; Party whips “should be answerable” for that
- “Parliament chews up, destroys and spits out families”
- Speaker’s flat is “awful”; used only to receive visiting dignitaries
- Smith’s alternative apartment cost taxpayers $12,000 in the first six months of this year
- Politics is the only profession where salaries don’t change after years of service

The interview has been transcribed below. The full length video interviews and panel discussions from this morning’s Q+A can be seen on tvnz.co.nz at,
http://tvnz.co.nz/q-and-a-news

DR LOCKWOOD SMITH interviewed by PAUL HOLMES

PAUL The country has been most annoyed this week at what many see as a certain outrageous claiming of expenses by our MPs, especially our Cabinet Ministers. Nothing's been against the rules of course, it's just that the expenses seem excessive, if not too many, a little greedy. As we know there aren’t a lot of subsidies available to the rest of us. We asked a number of MPs to come on the programme this morning to debate their expenses, every single one of them refused. On the National side Deputy Prime Minister Bill English said he wasn’t doing one on one interviews on the subject. Housing Minister Phil Heatley simply said no. Chief Whip Chris Tremain declined. On the Labour side the refusers included the high spending Chris Carter, and the whip Darren Hughes, in fact we were told no Labour MPs would be available this morning at all. So instead we turned to the man ultimately in charge of the perks and benefits, Speaker Dr Lockwood Smith who joins us live, and thank you very much for coming. The list that we've just put across the screen shows those who declined to come on and debate the expenses issue, why do you think they wouldn’t?

DR LOCKWOOD SMITH – Parliament's Speaker
I think it's a bit unfair to pick on one or two members Paul and say will you come on and defend the system. I think it's fair enough I should defend the system because in many ways for the members as distinct from the ministers I'm responsible for the system.

PAUL The fact that so many wouldn’t come on though when we approached them does that tell us that they know this expenses system is not popular, perhaps not even right. Are they somehow ashamed of it do you think?

DR SMITH Not popular I accept absolutely Paul, but that doesn’t mean it's not right. I mean when you have a parliament it's gotta meet somewhere, members of the public want to meet politicians, so you’ve gotta have an expense system of some kind, it's never going to be perfect, people are never going to like it. The important thing is that it's fair and reasonable.

PAUL Can I ask you a question about your own circumstances, why don’t you live in the Speaker's flat? A flat is provided at parliament for the Speaker, you don’t live in it, why not?

DR SMITH It's used for public occasions Paul, I'm using it quite a lot actually, when the King and Queen of Spain were here they used the Speaker's lounge there, and the dining room minister's are using that quite a lot, but if you actually look at the bedroom and bathroom and kitchen, I don’t think you'd want to live in it.

PAUL It's awful.

DR SMITH It's awful.

PAUL Nevertheless it is the Speaker's flat and it's provided for the Speaker, so you go and live somewhere else and you have to pay for it?

DR SMITH That’s just the normal what's paid for, I'm not even involved in the negotiation what's paid for it, I live in the other Speaker's flat.

PAUL How much rent have we paid for that this year?

DR SMITH The standard amount, the total rent's $24,000 a year.

PAUL So in the first six months of this year it's cost us $12,000. you’ve indicated you're surprised at the public reaction to the expenses revelations this week. Maybe you're surprised because you're out of touch too?

DR SMITH I've not been surprised Paul, I always believed there'd be a reaction you know and some people argued we shouldn’t release it because of that, but I believed actually it was important that the information be available. I just ask that people treat it with some responsibility, because what's happening now is ….

PAUL But hang on the rest of us don’t get subsidies, the rest of us don’t get money left right and centre.

DR SMITH What salary are you on?

PAUL That’s my private business.

DR SMITH Okay, well for a Member of Parliament it's not, but I wouldn’t mind betting you're on a very much higher income than a Member of Parliament.

PAUL Well why don’t, and maybe we have to confront this Mr Speaker. Maybe MPs should be paid much more.

DR SMITH The public wouldn’t allow it Paul.

PAUL It seems ridiculous that the Deputy Prime Minister and Finance Minister is paid 270 odd thousand.

DR SMITH And their CEOs get far far more.

PAUL But wouldn’t you have greater transparency if you could say look MPs instead of being on 130 are on 300 and that’s it.

DR SMITH The dilemma is though what happens if you're asked to go and visit people down in Gore or something like that, you see you’ve got different expenses, and that’s the dilemma, if you didn’t have to meet in Wellington for Parliament, if you didn’t have to do the work of a representative, then you could solve it that way undoubtedly, but where you’ve got a range of different expenses, a list member has nowhere near the expenses of an electorate member living – see to travel to Parliament for me is a four hour trip, for someone a list member in Wellington it might be a five minute trip. It costs a lot more, and that’s why there will inevitably be expenses.

PAUL How much does – if we include the expenses, how much does a back bench electorate MP earn?

DR SMITH I think it's $131,000 is it, forgive me I'm not 100% sure.

PAUL No, plus expenses, plus what they're entitled to.

DR SMITH Well the remuneration authority builds into that salary a $14,000 expense allowance, and we have no say in that, but then on top of that there's the accommodation in Wellington, there's the air travel, and accommodation when you're around New Zealand if you're asked to go and speak down in Gore say and can't get back.

PAUL So you can't tell me how much plus expenses the average back bench MP earns?

DR SMITH Well it varies so hugely, cos some members don’t actually get asked to speak around the country that much. One of the things that I'm actually amazed the media hasn’t focused on, is you now see who are the members in demand, who are asked to speak around the country, you can actually tell it from their travel expenses, because they're being asked to appear in front of groups all round the country. Some members are obviously not sought after much and therefore their expenses are only a fraction of the others.

PAUL To be fair to you Dr Smith you’ve made transparency a focus of your speakership, why did you think we needed a change on the transparency of expenses, even though it's caused you much grief?

DR SMITH I think it's just the demand for it that people want to see, and in some ways some good's come out it, I mean it's forced us to look at the system carefully and the way we're implementing the rules, we'll be tightening up some aspects of that, and I think that’s good, that’s positive. I think the negative bit is the pressure on spouses and families, I think that’s very unfair.

PAUL Well let's get to that a little bit, because you’ve ruled out, there is going to be much transparency, every three months we're going to know MPs' expenses, however one key area you’ve ruled out is the transparency on private international travel. What subsidies do MPs get on private international travel?

DR SMITH Well it depends totally on how long you’ve served in Parliament. after you’ve served sort 15 years I think it is you can get a 90% subsidy on international travel.

PAUL You think it is? After 15 years I think it is you said.

DR SMITH Yeah, because I mean it's all laid out there Paul but I actually don’t personally take a lot of notice of it. I do qualify for that level of subsidy.

PAUL Well who's taking notice of what Chris Carter's doing. Who is taking notice of how much MPs are spending on private international travel?

DR SMITH It's all there recorded. It's now going to be transparent for all to see.

PAUL It might be recorded. Alright, private international travel is going to be transparent?

DR SMITH It is, for you to see, it's there.

PAUL The amount of travel, or the amount it's cost us?

DR SMITH The amount it's cost is there for you to see, and actually a certain amount of international travel is important for New Zealand because the linkages Members of Parliament establish.

PAUL I'm talking about private holidays. I'm talking about private international travel MPs get subsidised on .

DR SMITH Well one of the reasons why that subsidy came in Paul is over the years if you take my situation prior to this last election. Twenty four years' service, pretty senior member, mostly on the front benches during that time, on exactly the same salary as the newest list member walking in six weeks before the election. Now in broadcasting, is an experienced broadcaster like you on the same income as someone recruited six weeks ago? Yet that’s the only profession I'm aware of where salaries don’t change after years of service. The one privilege, the one privilege members get after years of service is that travel subsidy, and I think actually they deserve it.

PAUL Right, so it is a perk.

DR SMITH It's a perk, but the cost's small compared to salary increments, small.

PAUL1 Yeah, but the MP and the spouse, has private international travel paid for by the taxpayer.

DR SMITH That’s correct yes.

PAUL Why should that be? I understand what you're saying, we deserve it because we don’t get salaries …

DR SMITH Well Paul you think it's a great perk, it only costs ten dollars to stand for Parliament Paul, ten dollars, nominate, see how you get on, see how easy it is.

PAUL Alright, but why should we pay for the spouse? I wouldn’t expect the companies I work for to pay for the spouse.

DR SMITH Think about it a little bit. When you work Paul you're mainly at home. I got married recently, no honeymoon, my wife and I have spent very little time together since I've been married. That’s the pressure on families, that is the real pressure on families. Parliament Paul chews up, destroys and spits out families, and if you want to put more pressure on families and spouses and marriages, that’s fine, I'm not going to support you in that.

PAUL Well Dr Smith with the greatest of respect, welcome to the real world. Professional private business executives travel without their spouses all the time, anyone who's ambitious and gets ahead sacrifices family.

DR SMITH Paul that’s ridiculous, the amount of time Members of Parliament have to spend away from their families far exceeds that. If you think that’s not true, stand, Paul, stand for Parliament. There've been quite a few in the media who have over recent times, and they’ve bailed out real fast, when they’ve found actually the going was a damn sight tougher than they expected.

PAUL So are we going to notice, clear this up once and for all, because I may have been under a misunderstanding. Are we going to know how much MPs have spent on private international travel?

DR SMITH There won't be a section of the expenses Paul that says private international travel.

PAUL Oh, so we're not going to know how much MPs are spending on private international travel with their spouses?

DR SMITH Well no we're not going to release that Paul, no.

PAUL You told me before you would.

DR SMITH Well you can work it out, you can see where members have – from their air travel expenses, I mean you can see where air travel expenses are extraordinarily high.

PAUL Do some people wrought it though? Look at Chris Carter, month long trip flying around the world with his partner, the United States, Canada, UK, Europe, very nice time of year to be in Madrid, in Europe. How much of that was work and how much of that was holiday, do you know?

DR SMITH I don’t know, and that is something where I think the Labour Party Whip should answer that kind of thing because at the end of the day that sort of travel, you know the party whips approve that, and I think that is something where they should be answerable for that.

PAUL Yes, but you're the Speaker. Who monitors how much time Mr Carter's working when he's in the United States, Canada, Europe and the UK?

DR SMITH End of the day his job's on the line in three years Paul, if he does too much of that his electors have got the chance to boot him out.

PAUL Can I just quickly ask about Bill English, the Deputy Prime Minister, Finance Minister. Living in his own home, claiming nearly $1000 per week up until recently he has been, he's lived in Wellington for years, how can he claim that Dipton is still home?

DR SMITH I believe it is still his home Paul. But you take his position. Young family, if he hadn’t had his family in Wellington with him, I don’t think that family could have survived, and I don’t think that would be right. I think we should have a system that allows people to be decent parents.

PAUL I understand this, I do understand this, but the point is Mr English lives in Wellington, his wife lives and works in Wellington as a General Practitioner, the essence of being a GP is long term relationships with your patients, so if they’ve been in Wellington a long time, his children have gone to Wellington schools for years, how is Wellington not Mr English's primary residence? To deny it defies commonsense.

DR SMITH If he was a list member that didn’t have to have a home in Dipton I'd say you're absolutely right, but he's not, he's the Member for Clutha Southland, he has to have a place in Clutha, Southland there, and where I'd be – I mean I'm not responsible for ministerial services, and the Prime Minister has announced a review of that.

PAUL` It's very narrow isn't it?

DR SMITH Well I think the issue is fundamentally around the limits, around the accommodation subsidy.

PAUL But doesn’t what we've heard this week, particularly in relation to private international travel and what appears to be an excessive use thereof by Chris Carter, indicate we need a Speaker's Review, we need a much broader review.

DR SMITH No I don’t accept that Paul, I think that the parliamentary service arrangements for ordinary members are pretty robust, pretty sound.

PAUL One last question if I may, if you were to be brutally honest, and I know it's a really hard one for you to answer, should we greatly increase MPs' salaries, if we want to attract the right kind of person into Parliament, if we want to stop MPs being demeaned by questions about expenses all the time?

DR SMITH I think it could possibly help, but it'll never solve the problem totally because of the issues I mentions before about having to meet in Wellington, having to travel around New Zealand to meet with voters all New Zealand. It won't solve the problem totally.

PAUL It's going to be a fluid situation.

DR SMITH And people will never like it, that’s the reality.

PAUL No. Dr Lockwood Smith, Speaker, thank you very much for coming on the programme.

ENDS