'The Nation'

PHIL GOFF interviewed by DUNCAN GARNER

DUNCAN With me this morning is Labour Leader Phil Goff, it's been a tough year and a tough week for Mr Goff, he's admitted that John Key is a slick Prime Minister and he's asking his own members what should Labour stand for and what should Labour look like, and to me it sounds like a complete overhaul of the party. Good morning Mr Goff, is it a complete overhaul?

PHIL GOFF – Labour Leader

Good morning Duncan, no but it's a time in Opposition when you reflect on how you want to move forward, what you want to do differently, we've put out a survey around our members about the sort of values, about the symbols that the party should represent, their views on that, it's an open process, the media had a bit of fun with it but that’s how it goes.

DUNCAN What's broken, I mean what's specifically broken, because I mean your branding's still quite specific, it's still quite well known?

PHIL Well it's not broken. You know we hold to our values, we've been promoting the values that Labour stands for, looking after the many not the few, a social just society, a dynamic economy, those sort of things go on, but you’ve gotta look at the things, when you lose an election you examine the reasons for that.

DUNCAN I think people also want to know is how is a Phil Goff Labour Party different to a Helen Clark Labour Party, can you tell viewers out there today how it is different, if at all?

PHIL Well, there's some continuity in principles bit it's a focus I think back on the things that count for people, it's about jobs, it's about incomes, it's about having the health services that you and your parents need.

DUNCAN But it was for Helen Clark too, all those things remain from Helen Clark, is it any different?

PHIL Oh there's a difference in style, I come from a different background from Helen, we'd have some similarities, we both went to university together, I come from a more working class background, my kids are tradesmen, so I see the world in a slightly different way.

DUNCAN So just in saying that, if we can move on to policy and what you do actually stand for as a party. You know that we're borrowing a lot of money, effectively the government's borrowing a lot of money to govern a 62 billion dollars overseas debt by 2013, 240 million dollars a week, we know it's all there, we know what the figures are, David Cunliffe suggested this week that borrowing is not actually the issue, would Labour borrow more?

PHIL Look we left the government a situation where there was a nil public debt on a net basis because we'd managed responsibly over those nine years. Yes we would be borrowing. Would we be spending in the same way – there are a lot of things that we'd cut, that the government has done, we wouldn’t be spending 110 billion dollars on paying polluters to pollute, that’s one very big difference.

DUNCAN Tell me what you'd cut.

PHIL Well Emissions Trading Scheme, you'd be keeping the incentive there for people creating pollution to do something about that, and to reduce that pollution, not having the taxpayer pick up the bill on their behalf.

DUNCAN Would you also cut the GST increase which is coming in the May Budget, you’ve campaigned on it for the last few months, more than 15%, can you give us a direct answer to that?

PHIL Yeah well I've given the direct answer and it said that the honest answer is we can't tell at this stage whether we can do that, we've gotta sum up what the situation is at the time, we're going to under promise and over deliver, not the other way around.

DUNCAN Okay, well that’s a no as far as I'm concerned.

PHIL No no, it's that we're keeping our options open, but we're not making promises that we don’t think that we can carry out or don’t know yet.

DUNCAN Ten years ago when Labour came to office you campaigned on that top rate of tax 39 cents, it's now 38, it's not secret that John Key and the National government are going to drop that to 33 in the next budget. Would you go into the next election campaigning for a return to that top rate?

PHIL What we'd go in to the next election about is using that two billion dollars, most of which will go to the very top income earners, to help middle income and low income earners in New Zealand, it shouldn’t just go to the few the top 7%, middle income earners are finding it pretty tough, they miss out both ways, low income earners are struggling to make ends meet, they're the people that are the priorities.

DUNCAN Can I get a specific answer to that question?

PHIL Yeah, it will be about making sure that the tax cuts when we get in are turned around to be fair to middle and lower income earners, and not just to reward the privileged few.

DUNCAN Philosophically Labour has always agreed with that top rate of tax targeting those people just like Michael Cullen did when he came to office in 1999, you still haven't given me and the viewers a direct answer about whether Labour would have a top rate of tax.

PHIL Oh look 38 cents in the dollar is not a high top tax rate by international standards. In Australia it's 45, in the United Kingdom it's 50, in Scandinavia it's 60. We're comfortable with 38, if there's gonna be tax cuts they should go to the middle and lower income earners, not simply the privileged elite. That’s a very clear answer.

DUNCAN Just to make it even clearer would you restore it back to 38?

PHIL Oh 38 I'm very comfortable with, I see no reason to cut the top tax rate below that, in preference to helping middle and lower income earners.

DUNCAN Okay so you restore that, what about some of those KiwiSaver incentives, National cut that down to 2% employer contribution, it was your scheme that they cut, would you bring that back into the level that it was before you got kicked out of office?

PHIL Well what's really clear is that this country's gotta save more, KiwiSaver was a brilliant way of doing that, they’ve cut it back, again we've gotta prioritise, we can't do everything when we get back into office, there's so much damage that will have been done. One of the priorities will be how we can increase savings. Now we're looking – we're going through the policy development process now as to how to best do that.

DUNCAN But in principle would you like to go back to the scheme that – New Zealanders really liked that policy.

PHIL Look we want to encourage people to save, and we want to make sure that the superannuation fund that we set up we're contributing to as well. We know there's 16 billion dollars there, we know it produces a huge rate of return and we know it's my generation meeting our share of the cost of our retirement, so your generation doesn’t carry it for us.

DUNCAN Just quickly yes or not, would you restore the full KiwiSaver?

PHIL I'm not going to develop policy on the hoof here, but would we do things to promote savings like incentives in KiwiSaver, yes that would be on our list of agenda items.

DUNCAN You mentioned last year, we turned up at a speech of yours that talked about changing monetary policy in New Zealand up to 20 years of consensus between all parties, what have you decided?

PHIL Oh we're developing that policy and it's clear that we think there are changes that are needed to monetary policy. Why do we need that – because if you put the whole weight on interest rates on people's mortgages, you're not going to achieve the results you want, you're gonna hurt a lot of people, you're gonna hurt a lot of businesses, because higher interest rates means a higher exchange rate, which puts your export business out of business.

DUNCAN So are you listening to groups like the Fabian Society and so forth in the background who are developing policy like this around monetary policy?

PHIL We're talking to a lot of groups, we're talking to the Manufacturers and Exporters Association, we're talking to people like Selwyn Pallet, we've got a group called the Fabian Society that are exploring different ideas, we're talking to economists.

DUNCAN So they're working on your behalf are they, when you say we've got a group, are you actively involved with the Fabian Society?

PHIL Well the Fabian Society is one of a number of groups, it's an inhouse think tank that the Labour Party operates, so will we do eve they say – no, will we listen to a whole range of opinions on this – yes, will we get the best policy internationally and from our people in New Zealand, the economists here that are looking too for some changes in that policy – yes.

DUNCAN So you are looking at changing and ending this current consensus aren't you, because those people on the Fabian Society are saying look this needs to be changed Mr Goff.

PHIL Yes, I've made that announcement that we are in Opposition challenging that consensus, it's not delivering everything we want. Does that mean we'd give away inflation control – not on your life, that’s critical but it's not the only thing, it's also about growth, it's about getting you're export sector up so that this country can live within its means.

DUNCAN Of course you won't be able to do any of this unless you're in government of course and have coalition partners. How would you describe your relationship with the Maori Party?

PHIL Oh well, we're competitors in many senses, there are things that we share together, there are things that we are totally opposed to each other on, that’s the same with any political parties. Would I work with the Maori Party – if that’s the way the electorate played its cards at the next election we'll look at any other party that will work with us for the values that we think are important to New Zealanders.

DUNCAN You see Shane Jones says the party is toxic and should be taken down, is that the Labour Party position, or is that Shane Jones' position, and I want a direct answer if I can Mr Goff.

PHIL Yes well Shane feels very strongly about that, and he feels strongly about it because he sees a lot of rubbish that’s being talked, including by the local Member of Parliament in his neck of the woods, Hone Harawira, and he's responding in kind.

DUNCAN Is it toxic?

PHIL There are things that I disagree with that they do, some of their policy I think are bad, some of their other policy ideas are akin to ours, if we have to we'll work with the Greens, we'll work with the Maori Party, we'd work with New Zealand First if it came back, but it would be around a programme that we think is for New Zealanders and what New Zealanders need.

DUNCAN Because last year you talked about in your Crossroads speech, or that race relations speech, that New Zealand is at a crossroads. Since your speech we've had the Whanau Ora, we've had the Declaration on Indigenous Rights for indigenous New Zealanders, and we've had the Foreshore and Seabed. What group did the government take since that crossroads speech.

PHIL Well I think they're in some serious trouble over the Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People, they’ve signed up to something that says one sector of the community has a veto right over any legislation or administrative action, they’ve signed up to something that says that the indigenous people of this country are entitled to all land that they’ve ever used, so they know they can't deliver on that, but they’ve raised the expectation.

DUNCAN So if Labour was to take office next year would you pull out of that declaration, would you send someone to the UN and say we don’t want a bar of this any more?

PHIL Well I'm not sure of what the withdrawal provisions are like for a declaration...

DUNCAN You would look at pulling out of it?

PHIL No, I don’t know what the provisions are yet, what I'm saying to you very clearly today is that that declaration and the things that it commits New Zealand to, cannot be implemented, falsely raises expectations, is dishonest and has been signed for the wrong reasons.

DUNCAN I just want to look at your leadership to end this interview. Why are you getting so little traction in the polls personally do you think, and you mentioned this week before your caucus meeting that one on one it's fine but as a group perhaps people don’t know you yet, you’ve had 29 years for people to get to know you.

PHIL People know me well in my electorate and that’s why I get a very good result in my electorate, they know in the wider public that I was a competent minister, that I handled every portfolio that I was ever given in an effective and competent way, and that I was strong in representing New Zealand on the international stage. What I think they don’t know about me Duncan is what makes me tick, and that’s because I've had a different role up to this point, and that’s because as we were talking about before there's very little opportunity for a politician, a Leader of the Opposition, to have the sort of in depth interview that you need to say what that person believes in, what makes them tick.

DUNCAN What about that Prince Charming approach that was talked about on the panel earlier, you’ve simply been around too long, by next year it's 30 years.

PHIL Prince Charming .....

DUNCAN I just want one thing, this week you had that survey, you talked about funky, futuristic, cool.

PHIL I didn’t talk about those things.

DUNCAN Well your party is, how would you describe yourself in one word?

PHIL In one word, I'm interested in a better New Zealand, that’s why I'm in politics.

DUNCAN Thank you very much Mr Goff for coming in this morning and there'll be more from Phil Goff with Stephen and the panel after the break, stay with us.

ENDS

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