'THE NATION'

TE URUROA FLAVELL & DAVID CLENDON
Interviewed by DUNCAN GARNER

Duncan The cries are growing louder over an oil and gas search that’s seen protestors take to the water off the East Cape. Iwi and environmentalists are furious at the government's decision to let Brazilian oil giant Petrobras scout the Raukumara Basin. Add into the mix disgruntled independent MP Hone Harawira and things could just get serious. He's already angry at the Maori Party deal with National over the Seabed and Foreshore, and he firmly believes tribes should be able to protect that Seabed and Foreshore from companies like Petrobras. So will Maori fall in behind him and turn this into a make or break issue for the Maori Party? I'm joined from Hastings by local Maori Party MP Te Ururoa Flavell. Good morning Mr Flavell.

Te Ururoa Kia ora Duncan.

Duncan Kia ora. I just want to ask you I just want to clear this up first of all. In terms of your party's policy you don’t support mining by the looks of what I can read on your Maori Party website, but you support it if Iwi do it is that right?

Te Ururoa Flavell – Waiariki MP
Well the issue's around the Iwi lands that Iwi own, the issue's for them to take up, in that regard if they decide to take up opportunities on their land it's appropriate they make those decisions, and that’s pretty much some of the issues that were associated with the Foreshore and Seabed or the Takutai Moana Bill that it is within their realms of responsibility to make decisions appropriate for them. The former legislation didn’t allow for that. But referring to your issue about mining, that’s our position yes.

Duncan So you will allow Iwi to do it?

Te Ururoa Duncan it's not about us allowing Iwi, it's for them to make those decisions for themselves.

Duncan And they're very annoyed this week that Petrobras is out there in the Raukumara Basin. Do you believe you’ve been loud enough and opposed this enough in your electorate.

Te Ururoa Well if I take you back to when it was first raised somewhere around June of last year one of my constituents came directly to me with an email, we went straight to the House, we had two days of questioning of the Minister over the phone Gerry Brownlee about lack of consultation with Iwi, we put out at least two or three press releases to say that it was inappropriate consultation. The Minister came back with responses to say that he had done certain bits and pieces to consult with Iwi. We also had response. So that was one part…

Duncan But there have been other parts too Mr Flavell, and one of them is a letter, an open letter from the Iwi, from Te Whanau Apanui, and they wrote to you an open letter. We haven’t heard from you. Why are you silent? We can't hear, you're not advocating for us. We can't see you in the media. Where are you? Their argument is that if your policy is against foreigners coming in and prospecting and mining you haven’t done enough, and that open letter was quite a signal to you that you should have been more noisy.

Te Ururoa Well hold on, I just tried to outline to you a little bit earlier Duncan that we did raise issues at the very time that this issue came to the public forum. Our offices sent letters from our co-leaders directly to the runanga involved. This is June of last year. In behind the scenes we've been certainly talking to some of the ministers to try and see what's going on. I personally have had meetings with the media people associated with Petrobras about late last year. I've had meetings just recently with Petrobras.

Duncan So why weren’t you successful in getting consultation between the Crown and the Iwi, because the argument out there is this has all happened and they didn’t know it was happening. Now they wanted more consultation, you are in the government, wasn't it your responsibility to set up consultation, you have the ear of the Prime Minister of the Energy Minister, why didn’t you do it?

Te Ururoa Well the bottom line is that they don’t consult us on everything, the agreement that we have with the government doesn’t require them to consult with us on every particular issue that comes through the door, but as I said I was advised by a constituent about that issue and I raised it at the time. Now since that time we've certainly been back and have been talking with the various ministers about it, and I spose the result of that is to say that why haven’t we done – we've done as much as we can through the media, and to raise the issues. But I spose at the end of the day it's come down to the question of legislation that’s our part in parliament. The legislation has been put through by the government it's not Petrobras's fault, it's a government issue, and what we've tried to do is say well the key issue that I've heard right throughout is the lack of consultation between the Crown and the Iwi, and so it's prompted us to come up with a bill that will be tabled when we get an opportunity…

Duncan Yeah but the Iwis are arguing that you’ve been hopeless in terms of organising that. I mean you're the local MP, you're also in government, you have two ministers that sit around effectively that wider ministerial table. Why haven’t you gone to John Key and said set up some hui and talk to them, because my understanding is you haven’t gone to John Key and asked him that directly?

Te Ururoa No, but we have raised that issue with the minister involved, Gerry Brownlee…

Duncan Why didn’t anything happen with the whanau up there?

Te Ururoa Well that’s an issue you need to take up with the minister.

Duncan But you're the representative up there Mr Flavell, why haven’t you been able to negotiate some consultation, because what's ended up this week is Petrobras coming down here, they’ve got a legal license, and you’ve got all the protestors out there. If there'd been consultation it might not have come to that.

Te Ururoa Exactly, I agree with that, I absolutely agree with that that there should have been consultation with the Iwi, we raised that issue with the governmental ministers when it first arrived about a year ago, and we've also raised it in the recent questioning in the House. Now we can but raise those issues in the House but in the end, as responded to by the Deputy Prime Minister there was no need according to the current legislation for the government, that’s their stand, or at least National's not necessarily to consult with everyone. And what we did was to say well if that’s the case then we need to draw up legislation that allows us to make sure that Iwi are consulted, and that’s the bill that’s called the Crown Minerals effective and meaningful engagement with Manawhenua Amendment Bill which is the bill that’s gonna be put up in my name to address that issue. I mean we can make submissions as much as we like. In the end what we're trying to do is address the issues by way of law.

Duncan And have you got the government's support for that, and have you got the government's support for the SOP if you like for that amendment?

Te Ururoa No because we haven’t even put it in the ballot as yet.

Duncan Okay so there's a bit of talking for you to do I think with the government. Thank you for joining us this morning Mr Flavell. I want to turn now and introduce Dave Clendon, you're the Green Party spokesman on this. Just listening to that there, I get the impression that they’ve been ignored by the National Party, the Maori Party, what's your view on that?

David Clendon – Green MP
I think the government has been ignoring just about everybody on this. It's true that they had no legal obligation to consult, but just wanting to get a good process and a good outcome it would have been very smart for them to do that. They’ve left the local Iwi and Hapu and indeed Greenpeace and the other protestors nowhere to go but out on the water.

Duncan But isn't there though, and I want to look at it from a different view – there's no jobs on the East Coast. Won’t this provide jobs to people. I mean there's arguments to and fro I know on that, but why don’t – you know you could be arguing that you're Luddites and this is jobs for people up there isn't it?

David There are very few jobs in offshore drilling. You don’t bring a rig and then start advertising in the Gisborne Herald for workers on it. There will be very very few jobs in this. People are talking about a billion or multi billion dollar resource, 95% of the value of any oil extracted would go straight overseas with the oil. We would get a 5% royalty. It is not job rich, the economic case is incredibly weak.

Duncan If the royalty regime changed and if you could say get better safety procedures in place, would the Greens therefore support it, or are you no matter what happens you won’t agree with it?

David If you could, that’s the key to it, there is no technology, there is no mechanism to assure the safety. Petrobras operations have had 27 blowouts on rigs since 1980. A blowout in Raukumara Basin would be just about impossible to stop.

Duncan But they're also one of the better companies if you look at their record. I know their record historically has been bad on some years, but if you put them up against other oil companies they’ve actually done okay.

David Yes, Petrobras have done very well economically, New Zealand public would be carrying 100% of the risk for 5% of the return. That is not a good business model, and there is no mechanism in place now that they could guarantee that they could cap a blowout. They are in very deep water. The nearest rigs that could come and drill a relief well would be at least as far as North West Australia, possibly the China Sea. It could be three months before any leak could be plugged.

Duncan Do you think the Maori Party should walk away from the government over this?

David I think the Maori Party will make their own decision on this. The Greens are absolutely on side with the Opposition. This is a very bad idea, economically risky, environmentally incredibly dangerous, and the local people simply don’t want it.

Duncan Alright. Thank you for joining us today. Earlier Maori Party Waiariki MP Te Ururoa Flavell, along with Dave Clendon from the Green Party.

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