Greg Boyed Interviews Peter Garrett
Sunday 18 November, 2012
Greg Boyed
Interviews Peter Garrett
Musician-turned
Australian Government Minister Peter Garrett takes a tough
line on controversial rules for Kiwis: “Once you’ve done
your time, then you get your benefits, and that’s as it
ought to be.”
Garrett disagrees with the
Australian Multicultural Council’s claim that the lack of
support for Kiwis are making them “second-class
citizens”.
Says people can make a decision based
on the rules before they leave. “If they don’t want to
come here because those are the arrangements in place, then
they don’t need to do that.”
And, “If you
don’t want to go Australia and you don’t like it, then
why would you come?”
Garrett doesn’t think
Kiwis are costing Australia socially, in fact he says, “I
see them adding to our national life.”
He says if
there are any issues, there are plenty of opportunities for
the two governments to discuss them.
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Q+A
GREG
BOYED INTERVIEWS PETER
GARRETT
GREG
BOYED
Many of you may recognise this man as a
musician, environmentalist or even activist. Now he’s in
the top tier of Julia Gillard’s Government. Peter Garrett,
now Minister of School Education, Early Childhood and Youth,
sat down with me in Melbourne to discuss whether he thinks
they’re being too hard on New Zealanders. I started by
asking him how he’d describe the Australian attitude to
the growing number of Kiwis living
there.
PETER GARRETT – Australian
Government Minister
Well, I think they’re seen as one of us but still with a
bit of Kiwi
accent.
GREG
That said, 280,000 New Zealanders here, they’re
on temporary visas, so they can’t get access to the social
services and that. Is that fair, do you
think?
PETER
Yeah, like anybody else, whether you come from New
Zealand or wherever it might be, there’s a system that
operates here. Once you’ve done your time, then you get
your benefits, and that’s as it ought to
be.
GREG
What sort of time should that be, because at the
moment, a lot of them, even the ones who are born here sort
of post-2001 don’t have those kind of access,
benefits.
PETER
Well, the system is in place to enable the orderly
management of people coming from any country, including
Kiwis, who we’re very affectionate to. So I think it works
perfectly well. I don’t get people coming into my office
to represent to me that this is a particular issue for them.
I know it’s an issue generally. I know it’s one that’s
been raised. But you know what the answer to it is?
Australian ministers and New Zealand ministers meet
regularly on this matter, including my compatriot who has
responsibility for these issues. So there’s plenty of
opportunity for people to talk it through. If there are
propositions in place, then governments can consider them.
GREG Phil
Goff from the Labour Party in New Zealand says all New
Zealanders here pay their taxes, paid their dues, worked in
countries, contributed to Australia, but they’re faced
with serious difficulties. They’re left without the
benefits, the social welfare benefits and so forth. He
reckons it should change. Is it something that needs to be
looked at a little more closely, do you
think?
PETER
Look, it’s not a pressing issue amongst people in
my electorate, which include Kiwis who live and work in the
eastern suburbs. Now, there’ll be some who probably have
that as an issue of concern for them. Of course it’s
something which can be discussed and governments can have
additional yarns about it, but it’s not pressing itself
into the consciousness of the people who I represent in the
seat of Kingsford
Smith.
GREG
What would your advice be to a New Zealand family
who are perhaps looking to up sticks and come to
Australia?
PETER
Oh, well, you know, come, by all means. I think the
fact is that people who have either come for a short period
of time or who have come and end up living permanently in
Australia have made a great contribution to the country -
whether it’s in business or sport. Music certainly. At the
same time, people need to recognise that it’s not like New
Zealand. They are still two different countries even though
we’re very close, and we’ve done a lot of really
important things together, but we’re still different. So
that’s a decision that only people themselves can
take.
GREG
You said before once they’ve sort of done the
time, they can be entitled to the benefits. What, in your
opinion, is the time? How long should the time
be?
PETER I
think the situation as it pertains now is what’s available
to people, and if it’s going to be changed, then that
would be a matter for discussion between the
governments.
GREG
It doesn’t work the other way round. Australians
go to New Zealand, and they sort of take up citizenship
there. They get rights to all our social services. How would
Australians, perhaps, going to live there feel were they
taken away and were in a similar situation for Kiwis coming
here?
PETER
Well, the answer to your question is that people
know what the situation is. They know how it applies, and
they make their decisions
accordingly.
GREG
A point that was made here - the Australian
Multicultural Council says Australia is creating a permanent
second-class citizen. Do you agree with
that?
PETER
No. I don’t think that’s true. I think the fact
is that people for a variety of reasons decide whether they
are going to want to come and settle, work, visit, tourist,
learn in another country, and in doing that, the rules of
engagement are set. People need to know what they are. If
they don’t want to come here because those are the
arrangements in place, then they don’t need to do that. Of
course, we’re really close countries, and we’ve got
closer economic relations, we share some common cultures,
and we work and we visit one another, and we spend a lot of
time together. But that’s really the situation as it
applies, and if it’s going to be changed, it would be a
matter of discussion between the
governments.
GREG
Should there be a
quota?
PETER
Look, the government’s got its policy in place.
Clearly, it’s one which we think is the right policy to
deal with questions of both visitation, permanent residents
and the like.
GREG
What about social costs, Peter? What about, sort
of, further down the line if you’ve got these kids who
can’t get access to perhaps funding for tertiary education
and social services but are going to live here permanently
or certainly long term? The cost to Australia socially, is
that something that is a bit of a
concern?
PETER
Well, I think we’ve got to look at it a little
broader. What does each country bring to the other both by
way of our intersections in trade, in commerce, in tourism,
in culture, in family relationships? I mean, people marry
Australians. New Zealanders marry Australians. Australians
marry New Zealanders. People come for a short period of
time, and they don’t think that they’re going to stay,
and then they end up staying for longer than they expected.
Others come and go again. I know people who have basically
gone across the Tasman two or three times. They might spend
five years here and two years there and five years back
again. So in that sense, I think we’re dealing with a
system which has got the framework in place. It may change
over time, subject to demand and need and decisions the
governments take. I think the overall thing is that I
don’t see New Zealanders in Australia as a cost at all. I
see them adding to our national life, and I see the same
thing happening when Australians go and visit and spend some
time in New
Zealand.
GREG
Certainly Australia has always been seen as they
big brother, the lucky country, and, since the global
financial crisis, one of the few countries in the Western
world not to go into recession. So it’s always going to be
an attractive proposition, isn’t it? New Zealanders are
going to come here despite the fact they aren’t going to
get full access to the social
services.
PETER
Well, I think the fact is that you’re right. We
do have a well-managed economy. We do have employment rates
which are at a healthy level, and there are opportunities in
Australia for people. But there are opportunities which
arise for people wherever they live. It’s not only people
from New Zealand who see Australia as potentially a
desirable destination. And I think, at the end of the day,
that there’s a component of the personal choice someone
makes. You know, it’s a pretty big thing to decide to
leave your own country, the place where you grew up -
you’re used to the language and the customs - and go
somewhere else for a period of time. In making that
decision, you lose some things, and you gain some things.
And quite often it’s only the individual and their family
who can actually make a call on that
balance.
GREG
It sounds like something - and I’m not putting
words in your mouth here - but if you don’t like it, you
don’t have to come here is what you’re kind of
saying.
PETER
Well, if you don’t want to go Australia and you
don’t like it, then why would you come? You might visit
and enjoy us for the place that’s got great beaches and
fantastic ski fields. Maybe not quite as good as the South
Island, but there you go. But at the same time, it’s a
personal decision that people make. And you have a country
which has got a proud democratic tradition. You have a
country which has got deep culture, including your Maori
culture. And you’ve got a country that has got fantastic
prospects. Yep, you’ll have some ups and downs in economy,
but it’s also a fantastic place to
live.
GREG
As far as the younger people who are here, as you
say, parents and that since 2001 have decided to come here.
You’ve now got kids who have done nothing but be the kids
of people who have moved here. Should they be reconsidered
and looked at in a slightly different light? Because they
didn’t make the decision to come here
themselves.
PETER
I think you’re going to keep asking me the same
kind of question, and I understand why you’re asking it.
It’s absolutely a legitimate question, but we are clear
that the way in which we constitute our immigration system
is one which is there for Australia and the Australian
Government to determine. We’ve got really close
relationships with the New Zealand Government. There are
many opportunities for these issues to be canvassed between
the relevant ministers. I’m sure they have been, and I’m
sure they will
be.
GREG
All right. Let’s jump off topic a little bit.
You’ve had the royals here recently. We had them as well.
I think they’re still in New Zealand, actually, as we
speak. Can we see a republic in your or my lifetimes in
Australia or New Zealand? Is that going to
happen?
PETER
Well, that’s… (LAUGHS) That’s a really good
question. And, look, I think the fact is here in Australia,
some of the steam has gone out of the republican debate. I
think that’s a pity. I’m one of those Australians by
generation, I guess, I consider myself a republican by
birth. Certainly respect the royal family for what they’ve
done and who they are, but I do believe in time that we need
to be a republic. In our lifetime? Well, maybe in yours,
mate, because you’re a little younger than I
am.
GREG
(LAUGHS) So fingers crossed. One thing I’ve got
to ask and I’d be remiss not to ask you is do you miss
being a rock star,
Peter?
PETER
Look, this is a question I quite often get in
Australia. Short answer: no. I mean, remember, I was in
Hamilton in a pub playing to bunch of people in the year
1979, which is the century before this one. I did it for a
long time. I loved it. But I think what I’m doing now is
hugely important to me, and hopefully we can get some good
things done for the country as
well.
GREG
Getting your message across- You were such a
political band. Getting your message across - you know,
people saw you, people heard you. Is it tougher in the
political environment, you know, surrounded by politicians,
Canberra, you know, wherever you are in the country, to get
those words across, to get that message
across?
PETER
Look, the two things are very different. Midnight
Oil was a band of musicians that had songs that had words
that had meaning, and then out it went. And wherever it
landed, it was up to people, really, how they took it. I’m
Minister for School Education and Early Childhood and Youth
here, and I’m delivering big budgets to lift the education
performance, to help early childhood and care, and I do that
within the context of the political system which we have. So
they’re really entirely different things. Of course it’s
the same me, same values, but very different
work.
GREG
Peter Garrett, thank you for your
time.
PETER
Thanks, mate.
Cheers.
ENDS