Greg Boyed Interviews Sir Ralph Norris
Sunday 18 November, 2012
Greg Boyed
Interviews Sir Ralph Norris
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Q+A
GREG
BOYED INTERVIEWS SIR RALPH
NORRIS
GREG
BOYED
You heard what Peter Garrett had to say
about Australians and New Zealanders going to Australia. Do
you agree with what he’s sort of saying about us
there?
SIR RALPH NORRIS - Trans-Tasman
Banker
Well, I think it’s fair to say that we
should know what the rules of engagement are. If you’re
going to go to Australia, you should do your preparation and
make sure you understand exactly what the rules are. So I
think he’s right as far as that’s concerned. Whether the
rules are fair is another matter. I mean, not a lot of
people realise, but on average, New Zealanders as a group
are the highest average income earners in Australia. So they
make a significant contribution in tax in their own
right.
GREG
But on the other side of the ledger, they come
here, they get pretty much full rights right from the get-go
if they’re going to be employed here long-term. It just
doesn’t seem a fair, two-way
street.
RALPH
Yeah, there’s no doubt about it that there’s
one set of rules in Australia and another set of rules here.
And I think that obviously Minister Garrett was making the
point that there should be, obviously, more dialogue between
New Zealand and Australia on that
matter.
GREG
That said, it’s not stopping us going there. 1000
a week was the latest, sort of, number we’re hearing,
especially from the smaller towns. Is that likely to change,
first of all, as these rules become more widely known and
also as the economy does slow a little bit with what’s
happening in
China?
RALPH
Well, certainly there’s been no doubt that
there’s been a significant increase in the number of New
Zealanders going to Australia over the last four or five
years on the back of the global financial crisis, and that
shouldn’t be a surprise given that Australia has been the
best performing economy in the Western world, and so
therefore it has been a shining light. And New Zealand has
performed ok, but obviously not as strongly as Australia. So
obviously it has been a magnet for New Zealanders to go
there. Whether that’s going to remain the case is up for
debate, because certainly there’s no doubt that the
Australian economy is a multi-speed economy. So you have a
situation where Western Australia with the resources,
riches, has been a very strong performer, and that’s
created a lot of wealth and a lot of jobs in Australia. But
if you look at some of the other states, they haven’t
performed any better than New Zealand in the last three or
four years. And particularly if you look at states like New
South Wales and Queensland, Queensland at the moment is a
significant
under-performer.
GREG
Let’s look at why. In the GFC, it was the only
Western country to not go into recession. It’s not just
size, obviously. Look at Europe, look at the United States.
Why did it manage to do what no one else, including New
Zealand, could
do?
RALPH I
think the reason for that was you’ve got a once in a
generation spike in resources and commodity values, and so
therefore Australia with its very strong resources sector
was able to take advantage of that. So you saw prices
peaking during the global financial crisis, which wasn’t
happening in any other area for any other country in the
same way that it happened for Australia. So Australia got
the benefit of that very strong surge in commodity prices
that make the Australian economy a much strong economy
through that process. So the strong linkages to China, to
India and the supply of raw materials has been a significant
benefit for
them.
GREG
Is that petering out a little bit? Were we, God
forbid, to have another GFC in 18 months’ time, would
Australia be as robust as it was last
time?
RALPH
Um, I don’t think so. I think that you have a
situation also in Australia that there was a very
significant kicker to the economy with the stimulus package
that was put in place there. Obviously Australia has shot
that bullet, and so therefore it’s now in a situation
where it wouldn’t have that same degree of flexibility
that it had in the first round of the global financial
crisis. And also you’re seeing a situation where commodity
prices have come off their peak, so it’s not as strong a
position for them as it was
then.
GREG
Let’s put the minerals and the mining aside.
Let’s put the population aside. We’re never going to be
able to compete on that front. What lessons can we or should
we have learnt from the way Australia has conducted itself
from the financial crisis on to now that we can apply to
this country?
RALPH
I think, again, you can’t just put aside this
whole issue of the resources. I think that’s been a
significant factor. I don’t think there’s any doubt
that, um, New Zealand is in a relatively strong position
going forward. I mean, we have a very strong food industry,
very strong dairying industry, and I think that that is
going to be a very strong card for New Zealand going into
the future. But also we have the ability to also take
advantage of extractive industries, you know, the resources
sector in regard to oil and gas and minerals. But the
situation is one where the country has to have an appetite
for exploiting those particular
opportunities.
GREG
We’re still not, though. Are we getting that
wrong? Are we perhaps putting our image, our perception of
ourselves as the clean, the green, too far ahead of what’s
literally in our backyard? Do we need to change that
mindset?
RALPH
I think we shouldn’t damage our clean and green
image. I think all of us want to make sure New Zealand has a
very strong environmental protection approach to the whole
of our economy and to the country in general. And so
therefore I think we need to be able to make those decisions
based around using high quality technology. And I don’t
think that you have a situation where there’s a situation
where to take advantage of those resources means that we
have to destroy our environmental
situation.
GREG
You’re now on the board of Auckland University.
At your level or below, because your level was, frankly,
stratospheric, are there the jobs, are there the
opportunities to keep New Zealanders here and not head over
to the Tasman?
RALPH
Well, one of the problems you have with being on
the edge of larger economies is that people will always
migrate. Those who are your brightest and best usually are
going to be attracted to the greatest opportunity, and we
see that even internally in New Zealand. I mean, people move
from Wanganui to Auckland or Hamilton to Auckland, from
Invercargill to Christchurch or whatever it may be. So you
see significant internal migration of people to take up
opportunities. And the same things happens with, obviously,
New Zealanders going to Australia. And it’s interesting to
note that over the last several years, there’s been an
increasing drift of the best and brightest Australians
moving to bases like Singapore, London, UK, and that’s
because of the fact that we now have a globalised economy,
and opportunities are
international.
GREG
So what you’re saying, to an extent, it’s
inevitable that flow to, one degree or another, to continue
to Australia. As for getting them back, let’s look at the
other side of the coin. Could we look at something
like-? I mean, we’re talking about corporates here,
with the movies, the Warner Bros, we put in tax breaks, we
put in incentives to get them back. Should we be looking at
something like that to get our top echelon of New Zealanders
back from Australia, back from the UK,
even?
RALPH I
think the situation does come down to opportunity, and,
obviously, if we can grow the economy and grow it into,
obviously, areas of new opportunity - and there’s no doubt
that movie industry is a classic example when you see people
like James Cameron deciding that he wants to live in New
Zealand. It shows that New Zealand does have some real basic
intrinsic attraction as a place to live. And so therefore
it’s about the opportunity. And so certainly what’s Sir
Peter Jackson and Weta Studios have done is created an
international capability which is second to none. And so
therefore we need to make sure that we are taking advantage
of new industries. And we’ve got great businesses that are
being created. Companies like Xero with the Cloud based
accounting software, and there are companies like Diligent.
There are a lot of companies, small companies, that can grow
to be much bigger companies, and as they do, they create
opportunities for people to actually stay and get the
advantage of those bigger jobs in New
Zealand.
GREG
So your message to, say, a university graduate who
literally has the world at their feet would be what? Look to
Australia? Or can things improve and cater to what they need
here?
RALPH
Well, I think there are a number of opportunities.
You can join companies that are here in New Zealand that
have international connections, and certainly what tends to
happen is that people get opportunities in New Zealand, and
then they get opportunities elsewhere. So if you look at the
large consulting and accounting firms, you see that all the
time. You see the same situation within the banks. A lot of
Australian banks have a lot of New Zealanders working
internationally for them now. So I think that the situation
is one where we are going to see this fluidity, this
mobility of labour. And I think that the important thing
here is to build a stronger
economy.
GREG
We will leave it there. Absolute pleasure talking
to you, Sir Ralph Norris. Thank
you.
RALPH
Pleasure.
ENDS