Q+A: Shane Taurima interviews David Shearer
Sunday November 25, 2012
Q+A: Shane Taurima
interviews David Shearer
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Q
+ A – November 25, 2012
DAVID
SHEARER
Labour
Leader
Interviewed by Shane
Taurima
SHANE
Well, David
Shearer, thank you for your time and thank you for being
with us in what’s been quite a tough week.
DAVID
SHEARER – Labour
Leader
Thanks very much. Nice to be
here.
SHANE
There’s David Cunliffe and the leadership, which we’ll
talk about shortly, but let’s start with Kiwi Build –
your big housing policy. 100,000 homes over 10 years. How
will it work?
MR SHEARER
Basically, we’ll go out and raise the money through bonds,
use that money then to build houses through the private
sector. When we sell the houses, that comes back into a pool
and it goes around and we build more houses again. So it’s
effectively a continual cycle of building, selling and
continuing to build again, and the margin on the house that
we sell will pay for the bond – the interest on. So we put
a little bit of money on the top – a little profit on the
top, if you like – to pay back to the bond. So the whole
thing is
self-funding.
SHANE
How much will each home cost?
MR
SHEARER Well, we’re looking at the
affordable-homes area, which is basically 300,000 –
around. This is the area where people can't get into houses.
We’ve got hundreds of thousands of Kiwis who would like to
own their own home, can't get on that first rung on the
ladder.
SHANE
Obviously it won't cost 300,000 everywhere in every town,
and I imagine it’ll rise over 10 years too – the cost of
the homes to build. So how will that work?
MR
SHEARER Obviously in Auckland it’ll
be possibly more expensive than in other places, but we
believe we can build houses and this is the
statistics—
SHANE
So quite a bit more expensive than 300?
MR
SHEARER No, no, I think we can build
houses in Auckland for 300,000 and I’m going to see
a—
SHANE
Because you’re going to get something quite different here
in Auckland to Invercargill, say.
MR
SHEARER Well, it’s obviously
targeted at the places where housing affordability is a real
issue.
SHANE
So where are you going to build these homes?
MR
SHEARER Well, all over New Zealand,
but mainly targeting Auckland, because it’s the biggest
problem. Wellington, Tauranga, Queenstown – the places
where home affordability is a real issue and getting people
into that first
home.
SHANE
We build about 24,000 homes nationally every year now. You
want to increase that by about a third. Who’s going to do
it?
MR SHEARER Well,
actually, we’re not building that number, and this is the
real problem. If you look at Auckland, we should be building
10,000 homes a year. We’re currently building around 3000,
and only 5% of those homes are actually in the
affordable-housing range, so what we’re doing is we’re
building at the upper end, but we’re not building at that
first lower level that allows people to get into their first
home. So it’s really targeted at first-home buyers so they
have a real
chance.
SHANE
But doesn’t that make my original question even more
important? If we’re not building the homes that we need
now, who’s going to build them?
MR
SHEARER Obviously what we’re going
to be doing is intervening where there is a market failure
here, and there is a market failure, because obviously if
the homes were going to be built, we wouldn’t need to
intervene. But this is about smart government getting into
build homes, making an intervention. It’s not expensive
for us, because as I say, it’s revolving funds and enables
people to get that first
chance.
SHANE
But who’s going to build them?
MR
SHEARER Well, the private sector will
build them. It’s not the government who’s going to build
it. All the government is doing is facilitating the finance
to enable that to actually
happen.
SHANE
So if they’re not building them now, what are you going to
do to change that?
MR SHEARER
Well, first of all, by enabling the finance to be put in
place, but also being able to say to, say, a construction
company, “You have a 10-year building operation here. This
is the number of houses we want to build – 10,000 a
year.” It gives them the ability to be able to plan ahead
and get building materials at a much cheaper cost than
perhaps they would be able to
otherwise.
SHANE
So you say this is for first-home buyers.
MR
SHEARER Yes, only for first-home
buyers.
SHANE
And they’ll still need a deposit.
MR
SHEARER Absolutely,
yes.
SHANE
So what about those that can't afford the deposit, those
low-income earners? What are you doing for them?
MR
SHEARER Well, obviously there's a
whole range of different issues that we need to focus on on
housing, and this is one part of it. But we’ve also been
talking to social-housing providers. They’re very very
keen on becoming involved in this, and they have a range of
different options that they can have for people who have
more difficulty, so that’s rent-to-buy schemes, other
different options that we’ll be able to
do.
SHANE
It sounds like, though, your target is still on the middle
class. You haven’t really answered my question around
low-income earners – the poor.
MR
SHEARER Well, obviously there's going
to be other issues in and around that, and it’s around
state housing, social housing, that sort of
thing
SHANE
So you haven’t got to that yet?
MR
SHEARER Well, we’ll roll out policy
on that
later.
SHANE
I don’t want to labour the point around the poorer people
or the low-income earners, but could we expect to see more
state homes, for example, being built?
MR
SHEARER There's a possib— Well,
look, I’m not going to go there now, because that’s a
policy—
SHANE
It sounded like you were going to say, “It’s
possible.”
MR SHEARER No,
no, what I will say is that part of the housing package that
we rolled out as well is about making sure that rental
properties are actually up to scratch, so there's going to
be a guarantee in and around rental
homes.
SHANE
That sounds like you're committing to a warrant of fitness
for rental homes.
MR SHEARER
We’re calling it a housing guarantee to guarantee that
there's going to be insulation and there's going to be
heating inside of the house.
SHANE
I want to
talk briefly before we move on, because obviously this will
be part of your package to help stimulate the economy, and
we’ll be talking to the Prime Minister shortly about the
high unemployment rate. Now, he says that the high
unemployment rate is due to the global economy. And you’re
laughing.
MR SHEARER No,
I’m not laughing. I’m just
saying…
SHANE
He says, though; the Prime Minister says he can have little
influence over the global economy. What do you say to
him?
MR SHEARER Well, I’d
say to him that the National government’s been saying this
forever, and each time they promise and then they break
their promises, and we know that the economic situation
internationally is as it is, but the government hasn’t
moved on a number of issues where it should have done to
actually create jobs and to move the economy
along.
SHANE
Like what?
MR SHEARER Well,
for example, we have manufacturing industries – 40,000
jobs in manufacturing lost, 1500 companies have gone to the
wall, and what are the manufacturers saying? The exchange
rate. Our exchange rate is way too high and the government
won't budge on that. Procurement policy – why can't we
have a procurement policy where the government actually
favours Kiwi companies instead of buying, for example, our
railway carriages from China rather than building them in
Dunedin at the Hillside workshops? There are a number of
things that the government could do – they’re simply not
doing it – to advance our
economy.
SHANE
So you’re happy to buy more expensive things if it’s New
Zealand-made?
MR SHEARER What
we’re saying is let’s favour New Zealand companies and
let’s factor in the additional costs that we may have to
pay for the wider good of the economy. Now, you don’t want
to get silly about that, but where it’s appropriate and
where it’s sensible— That’s what’s happening in
Australia. That’s what's happening in Singapore, and
that’s what's happening in the United States. It’s about
time we stood up for our New Zealand companies here in New
Zealand.
SHANE
You’ve spent the week talking about housing, but also
getting your own house in order. You’ve demoted a senior
MP, a former minister. How did it get that bad?
MR
SHEARER Well, it’s an unfortunate
incident. It’s behind us now. We had a very long
conversation about that at the caucus meeting on Tuesday,
and it’s dealt with and now we move on. The party is
unified under my leadership. We had a fantastic conference,
despite those side issues, on the weekend last weekend.
People came out of there energised, ready to go out and
really get behind the Labour banner and take something and
make a real difference to New Zealand, and my message to
them was we can make a real difference to New Zealand, and
that’s where we will be
going.
SHANE
But I want to go back to my original question, because I
want to know why it got that bad. Because when you have, for
example, your chief whip, Chris Hipkins, at the beginning of
the week saying, and I quote, “David Cunliffe has been
working for some time now to destabilise the current
leadership,” end of quote. And we think, well, how long
has this been going on?
MR
SHEARER Well, at the conference, I was
rather dismayed to see David Cunliffe, I believe, acting
disloyally, and that’s why I took the steps I did. Now,
obviously there were a lot of people who were upset about
that, and they have spoken out. What I have said to our
caucus is, “We will deal with this internally. We will
move on. I am the leader, and as far as I’m concerned,
that’s the end of it. We move on from
here.”
SHANE
But how long had this been going on for?
MR
SHEARER Well, I’m not going to go
into the details about the past. As far as I’m concerned,
we’ve put a line under it and we’re moving
on.
SHANE
And I can understand that, but I think it’s only fair that
we have some clarity – some context, if you like –
around the decision – a big decision that you’ve made
this week. And I think the question is pretty
straightforward and reasonable around just how long David
Cunliffe has allegedly been begin disloyal to
you.
MR SHEARER Well, what
I’m saying to you is on that weekend, things came to a
head. I’m not going to be going and re-litigating
everything that’s happened over the past few months. But
certainly on this weekend, unfortunately what happened was
we had a very very successful conference that was
overshadowed by David Cunliffe talking about leadership and
not being able to be loyal to me as the leader. That’s why
I took the action that I did. As far as I’m concerned,
I’m ruling a line under it and we’re moving on from
here.
SHANE
Was he doing the numbers? Was he actively plotting against
you? You’ve spoken about his behaviour at the weekend.
Let’s just clarify that point. Was he actively plotting
against you?
MR SHEARER Look,
what I’m saying to you is that at the weekend, I don’t
believe his behaviour was loyal to me. I don’t feel I can
trust him, and as a result of that, I have demoted him to
the backbenches and we are moving on from
there.
SHANE
How can you move on, though, when you seem to have a divided
caucus? It was only at the beginning of this week when you
had MPs saying they didn’t think that David Cunliffe had
done anything wrong, obviously doubting your
leadership.
MR SHEARER Well,
we just had a caucus meeting on Tuesday where 100% at that
caucus endorsed my leadership. That is about as good as it
ever gets. We are finished with
it—
SHANE
But you had to muzzle them as well.
MR
SHEARER Well, what I said to them is
exactly what I am saying to you right now. I will be the
only spokesperson on this, we will draw a line under it, and
we will move
on.
SHANE
We’ve talked to many in your party, we’ve read the
blogs, and it’s clear that there are quite a few that
think you’re a) not up to the job and b) a bit too
right-wing.
MR SHEARER
Right-wing? I’m being accused now of being too left-wing
after my speech. Look, I don’t— To be honest with you,
I’m not concerned about what those people say. I don’t
read the blogs. I don’t respond to the blogs. A lot of
other people do. As far as
I’m—
SHANE
But these are people from within your own party. Surely
you’d be listening to what they’re saying.
MR
SHEARER Look, I was at this conference
on Sunday. There were a thousand people there. It was the
biggest conference we’ve had in a generation. It was the
most people that we’ve ever had to a leader’s
conference— to a leader’s speech that anybody can
remember. People walked out of there upbeat, really ready to
go out there and fight the good fight, and that’s where we
want to leave it. I don’t want to be dragged down into
these other issues. And if you were there, you would have
seen that and experienced that. It was
great.
SHANE
But it sounds a bit destructive, though, when you’ve got
blogs going on and on about your leadership, complaining,
criticising your leadership. It can hardly help the
cause.
MR SHEARER Well, look,
I don’t read blogs. I go around the country and I talk to
people.
SHANE
What do you say to people? Is it time that they just shut up
and move on?
MR SHEARER Well,
what about talking to some of the people who actually think
that I’m doing quite a good job? And that’s— What
you're doing is only picking—
SHANE
Well, who are
those people?
MR SHEARER
Look, the people who have written about the conference, for
example, over the weekend. They said that it was a very good
conference and that my speech at that conference and what I
delivered was uplifting for the Labour people who were
watching. Now, I’m really happy with the way it ended
there. We have set out a completely new agenda for Labour.
It’s about making a difference. It’s about hands-on
government. The housing policy we talked about before is
exactly an example of that. It’s about a smart government
getting involved and not having the hands off the wheel. We
will be hands-on, we will intervene where we need to, and we
will make a difference in people’s
lives.
SHANE
Looking ahead, when can we expect a reshuffle?
MR
SHEARER In my own
time.
SHANE
Which is this year, next year?
MR
SHEARER Well, I’ll let you know when
I make that
decision.
SHANE
What about moving into next year? You’re averaging about
32% in the polls. What should you be at this time next year
to put you in a good position and in a good place for the
next election?
MR SHEARER
Well, I’m not making predictions for where we should be,
but
if—
SHANE
But you must have a target.
MR
SHEARER But if I was looking back—
For example, at the beginning of this year where we were at
27 – and I would say that the average of the polls is a
bit higher than that – we have actually pegged back the
difference between National and Labour to a gap that is
closer than we have seen in the last four years. So we’ve
actually done pretty
well.
SHANE
That’s an average increase of about 5 percentage
points—
MR SHEARER 5%, 6%.
6%.
SHANE
Would that be a fair target for next year – this time next
year?
MR SHEARER Well, as I
say, I’m not making predictions. Obviously what we’d be
doing is our very best. This year – this is just gone –
has certainly been about making some big changes to Labour
that we needed to make; refocusing ourselves; myself as
leader setting up that new direction, which I did on the
weekend. And now we’re ready to go forward into next year
much more fired up and much more organised and ready to
win.
SHANE
You’ll still be the leader at the next
election?
MR SHEARER I can
guarantee
it.
SHANE
Good place to leave it. David Shearer, thank you for your
time and have a lovely Christmas.
MR
SHEARER Thank you, Shane. Same to
you.
ENDS