Jessica Mutch interviews Shane Jones
Jessica Mutch interviews Shane
Jones
Labour’s Shane Jones says
he now fully supports his party’s energy policy despite
earlier saying he had reservations.
Shane
Jones appeared on TVNZ’s Q+A programme today where he told
Deputy Political Editor Jessica Mutch that he is 100 per
cent comfortable with Labour and the Green’s joint energy
policy.
“Yeah, most certainly. I think it will
create jobs, and I think people need to see the rhetoric
coming from the merchant banking community, who are proxies
for the government, for what it is. Their rhetoric is
tainted, because their paid by the government to jack up the
price for Mighty River, and, look, getting political advice
from them is like sort of taking grooming advice from
Frankenstein.”
But Jones concedes that he needed
convincing.
“You know, this is how politics
works. It’s dynamic. It’s not static. You have your say.
You debate it vigorously, and I’m a vigorous debater, and
then you arrive at a position of consensus,
and then
you're obligated to show the public that, number one, you
believe in the policy and you're capable of implementing it.
And under our watch, there will be no fleecing of households
any more by the power companies.”
He also
says it’s about presenting a united front to
voters.
“What you do is you have your debate and
you’ll never ever completely agree with everything behind
the scenes, but you show loyalty, and unless the voters
believe that you're a united
team, then why would they
ever support you?”
And he admits he has taken
some flak from the business community.
“Well, the
merchant bankers have gone absolutely nutty, but then I
accept where they’re coming from…”
But he
says he has finally found some common ground with the Green
Party.
“Well, look, I’ve said some colourful
things in the past, and I finally found something that I can
agree with the Greens on – ie, regulating the power
industry.”
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Q + A – April 28,
2013
SHANE
JONES
Labour List
MP
Interviewed by JESSICA
MUTCH
JESSICA
Shane Jones, thank you very much for joining me this
morning. I want to start off by asking you are you 100%
comfortable with Labour’s energy
policy?
SHANE
Yeah, most certainly. I think it will create jobs, and I
think people need to see the rhetoric coming from the
merchant banking community, who are proxies for the
government, for what it is. Their rhetoric is tainted,
because their paid by the government to jack up the price
for Mighty River, and, look, getting political advice from
them is like sort of taking grooming advice from
Frankenstein.
JESSICA
You say you’re 100% comfortable. You haven’t always been
that way though. In an article two weeks ago, you said you
needed convincing. What’s
changed?
SHANE
Yeah, no, that’s very accurate. Look, I start these things
as a Doubting Thomas. I had a
background—
JESSICA
Why were you
doubting?
SHANE
Well, the background I came to politics from was the fishing
industry, and I’ve seen excessive regulation in that area,
and I’ve always been a Doubting Thomas about that. But I
put my faith in the utility and the enjoyment that will be
widespread, in my view, once households get cheaper power
and people realise, look the power sector is a very
important sector, and if you're going to influence economic
policy, moderating power prices for industry and households
is fantastic. It’s capital intensive, and I think that
when you consider the value associated with that kind of
redistributive decision, then light-handed regulation should
move away and we take a more robust regulatory
approach.
JESSICA
Did you express those concerns to the Labour
leadership?
SHANE
I certainly— Well, how things work is that behind the
team, we’ve got an economic sub-caucus committee and we
have some fairly robust debates there. And, yeah, I said,
“Look, by and large, I think light-handed regulation has a
place, but after the Pike River disaster, I kind of lost a
lot of faith with light-handed
regulation.”
JESSICA
Is this, for Labour, about securing that 5%. You said
yourself that Labour needs to attract and retain about 5% of
the vote to be able to win the next election. Is that what
this policy is
about?
SHANE
Well, it’s probably not the most felicitous of things
I’ve said as a politician, but the reality is that this
policy is already resonating fantastically well with
households.
JESSICA
So is this what it’s about? Is it about buying those
votes?
SHANE
Well, for me personally, it’s about several things. Number
one, although the power sector’s about 2.5% of our GDP,
which is about 190 billion, it’s transformational impact
is enormous. So to moderate power prices is something akin,
really, to reducing the real exchange rate. So from my
economic background, I come at it like that. As a
politician, we put policies out there that will resonate
with households and with the public, and I take on board the
more shrill attacks that are coming from Steven Joyce. I
mean, you shouldn’t dismiss someone like Steven Joyce. He
didn’t get the name FIGJAM for nothing. So when he’s
attacking us, he’s attacking us on our economic
credibility, but people should know there’s a robust
debate happening, and people like myself, who have a
background in business and who are Doubting
Thomases—
JESSICA
Well, it sounds very much, though, that you're saying you
buy the policy politically, but you don’t buy the policy
itself.
SHANE
No, no, not at all. No, as economic development regional
spokesman, I see the cost of energy as being an impediment
to growing industry such as
forestry.
JESSICA
But how can we buy this? You say that you had concerns, you
voiced those concerns to the leadership, but now you're 100%
on board. Is that plausible
really?
SHANE
You know, this is how politics works. It’s dynamic. It’s
not static. You have your say. You debate it vigorously, and
I’m a vigorous debater, and then you arrive at a position
of consensus, and then you're obligated to show the public
that, number one, you believe in the policy and you're
capable of implementing it. And under our watch, there will
be no fleecing of households any more by the power
companies.
JESSICA
Why now? Why bring this policy in
now?
SHANE
I think the decision was well timed. It’s been signalled
to those New Zealanders and others who are of a bent to buy
the power companies once they become available that the
regulatory framework will change. And that’s not
unnatural. All governments in a mixed economy like ours
change from time to time. Look, we changed Telecom and
National came in – they never reversed those changes, so
that’s an example where a utility has been regulated, and
these utilities have now come to enjoy our
attention.
JESSICA
How do your friends in the business community feel about
this?
SHANE
Well, the merchant bankers have gone absolutely nutty, but
then I accept where they’re coming
from—
JESSICA
So you’re getting a bit of slack from them on
that?
SHANE
Well, from time to time, but I’ve learnt as a politician,
you sup with them with a very long
spoon.
JESSICA
Let’s talk about the relationship that Labour has with the
Greens. On a scale of one to 10, how comfortable are you
with
that?
SHANE
Well, look, I’ve said some colourful things in the past,
and I finally found something that I can agree with the
Greens on – ie, regulating the power industry.
JESSICA
Well, let’s talk about some of that colourful language.
You’ve accused the Greens of knee-jerk emotionalisim and
called them the political wing of Greenpeace. How can you
work closely with a party when you feel like
that?
SHANE
Well, you know, to quote a frequently heard phrase, one
moves on. Those remarks were in relation to Te Tai Tokerau,
where I come from. I actually think the extractive
sector’s got a fantastic role to play in generating
jobs.
JESSICA
So can you trust the
Greens?
SHANE
Pardon?
JESSICA
Do you trust the
Greens?
SHANE
Oh yeah, yeah, of course. At the end of the day, you do a
deal in politics. What the final shape and form of a
government might look like after the next election –
that’s above my pay grade. You should talk to David
Shearer about
that.
JESSICA
Well, on that, do you think that your leader, David Shearer,
was right in holding that joint press conference with the
Greens and sending that very clear signal to everyone that
they’re a “buy one, get one free”
deal?
SHANE
Well, I think the optics are that after the next election,
the public will demand that one of the largest parties –
either us or National – will have to find some bed
fellows.
JESSICA
So was he right to do that joint press
conference?
SHANE
Without a doubt there's a lot of common ground, and there
won’t be common ground on everything, but there's a lot of
common ground on the power industry and the need to regulate
it and strip out these sort of monopoly profits, so I think
it was a very sensible gesture, and it showed purchasers
that if there is a future centre-left government, this
industry will be further
regulated.
JESSICA
Did you advise him against that – doing that joint press
conference?
SHANE
No, look, when those discussions took place, in all honesty
I was up Tai Tokerau, so I was out of the loop
there.
JESSICA
If he’d asked you, would you have said it’s a good
idea?
SHANE
Well, it’s sort of a bit above my pay grade, actually.
That happens at the
top.
JESSICA
Do you or do you not think it was a good
idea?
SHANE
Yeah, no, no, the fact that the Greens and Labour sat
together and talked about moderating power prices for the
benefit of industry and the households is good
optics.
JESSICA
Steven Joyce put out a press release last night saying that
the Greens are having a lot of influence and saying “more
middle-of-road MPs like Shane Jones are now isolated and
forced to recite the anti-growth agenda”. What's your
response to
that?
SHANE
No, well, anyone who’s got a sliver of knowledge about me
knows that I’m a firm believer in growth. There will be
occasions where we continue to have a different position
with the Greens, but, look, Steven
Joyce—
JESSICA
But does Steven Joyce have a
point?
SHANE
He’s just being hysterical. It’s pretty sad that he’s
having to recite my name at a National
Party—
JESSICA
So you're not having to swallow dead rats
here?
SHANE
No, it’s not how politics works. You have your say. You
may be a bit frustrated, etc. I mean, I’m a Maori
politician. I live with frustration. And then once having
arrived at a position, then you go out, you robustly sell
it, and then you convince the public that this is good for
the economy, this is good for households and the people who
are against it are tainted because they’re paid by the
government to oppose our
policy.
JESSICA
So what you're basically saying is you have to suck it up
and go out and sell Labour’s
policy.
SHANE
Without a doubt. You
don’t—
JESSICA
Even if you don’t believe in
it?
SHANE
No, no, no, no, no. What you do is you have your debate and
you’ll never ever completely agree with everything behind
the scenes, but you show loyalty, and unless the voters
believe that you're a united team, then why would they ever
support
you?
JESSICA
And is that what you're doing here? Are you purely showing
loyalty to your
party?
SHANE
No, what we’re doing is actually providing a fillip for
households and industry. Look, industry have told me if the
provision of power and the affordability of power improves,
there's at least 5500 new jobs in the forestry and
manufacturing sector, and one of the impediments is this
system of energy management which we have in New Zealand,
power manage, which really just fleeces both industry and
households.
JESSICA
You’ve got this relationship with the Greens. Would you
like to see New Zealand First play more of a part in that
mix? Does that sit more comfortably with
you?
SHANE
Well, look, the reality is, as I’ve said, that’s above
my pay grade, but obviously
Winston’s—
JESSICA
At number seven,
though.
SHANE
Yeah, but Winston’s from the north; I’m from the north,
but who knows what's going to happen after the election, and
it’s idle and it’s quite dangerous to speculate about
that before the
election.
JESSICA
Looking forward 18 months, how do you rate your leader’s
performance going into the election in
2014?
SHANE
Oh, I think we’re going from strength to strength, without
a
doubt.
JESSICA
What about your leader,
specifically?
SHANE
Yeah, we’re going from strength to strength. In fairness
to David Shearer, he’s not an institutionalised
politician. He’s been an international man. He’s been a
man in education, etc. And I think what afflicted Phil Goff
was our own disunity, and the public treated us
appropriately when we showed
disunity.
JESSICA
On a scale of one to 10, 10 being he’s doing a stellar
job, how would you rate your
leader?
SHANE
Oh, very close eight, nine, 10 – somewhere up there. And I
think, look, the reality is that not one person is going to
kick a goal. It’s a team effort. But a team has got to be
strong enough to robustly debate things behind the scenes.
But also I think honest enough to go out there and show the
public that not only are we united, but we’re capable of
implementing transformational policies, and believe you me,
taking an axe to the profiteering motives of the energy
industry and putting industry and households before the
gold-plated sort of executive salaried ones is good for the
country.
JESSICA
And that’s a nice place to leave it. Thank you very much
for your time this morning, Shane
Jones.
ENDS