Sunday 11 August, 2013
Q+A Judith Collins Interview 11/8/2013
Deputy Political Editor Jessica Mutch interviews Justice Minister Judith Collins

Q+A, 9-10am Sundays on TV ONE and one hour later on TV ONE plus 1. Repeated Sunday evening at 11:30pm. Streamed live at www.tvnz.co.nz

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SUSAN Our poll last week showed nationally that John Key is still preferred Prime Minister, sitting on 41 per cent – pretty healthy number. But if he were to step down, who would take his place? We’ve got the results of a Colmar Brunton poll of who the public would most like to replace him as leader of the National Party. Here they are. Interestingly, Finance Minister, former National Party leader Bill English tops the pops. He’s National’s next preferred leader on 23 per cent. Following him is the party’s Mr Fix It, Steven Joyce, on 16 per cent, while Justice Minister Judith Collins comes in on 11 per cent. Half of those people polled chose someone else – whoever that may be – or were unsure who they’d rather take over from the preferred, John Key. So what of Justice Minister Judith Collins’ leadership aspirations? Jessica Mutch sat down with her this morning to find out and, more importantly, why she won’t step in and act in the case of Teina Pora. He’s been in prison for more than 20 years, convicted of the rape and murder of Susan Burdett in 1993. Labour and the Police Association want an inquiry into his conviction. Judith Collins says her hands are tied, even though she has admitted he could be innocent.

JUDITH COLLINS – Justice Minister
Well, the way for justice to be done is for Mr Pora’s application for leave to appeal to the Privy Council to be completed and/or to continue down the path of a pardon application that he started in September 2011. That is the way it should be, because otherwise I would be interfering in the courts. And if the media wants me to interfere in the courts to free someone they believe is innocent, they’ll also expect me to interfere in the courts if there’s someone who they think is guilty. I cannot do that without breaching the separation of powers convention.

JESSICA You have said, though, that there’s a chance that he could be innocent.

JUDITH Yes, and the other way round too, so that’s not—

JESSICA Absolutely.

JUDITH …for me to decide at this stage.

JESSICA But doesn’t that mean that this is urgent, that something needs to happen? Couldn’t you make an exception out of this case because of the public interest in it and step in and review it and enquire?

JUDITH What I think is urgent for Mr Pora is for his lawyer to complete his application for a pardon, which he started in September 2011, and to – and I would do this in the other order – I would put the appeal to the Privy Council in. That’s what’s urgent. But for me to step in—

JESSICA So has his lawyer been too slow, in your opinion?

JUDITH Well, I think his lawyer said that when he first put the application in for a pardon that he wanted to put more information, more evidence in. I think if he’s got more evidence, he should either decide to go down the Privy Council appeal route, or else he should go straight for a pardon, but he needs to actually finish these applications. And it’s not for me as the Minister of Justice, who has 12 other— sorry, 12 applications at the moment for pardons to step right across that and do that work for him.

JESSICA I want to talk about this issue of corporate manslaughter.

JUDITH Yes.

JESSICA It’s been something that’s been very high-profile with CTV and also with Pike River. Is this something that you’re going to look at introducing?

JUDITH Well, I’ve got the Ministry of Justice working on this at the moment, but what I’ve asked them to do is to see where this has been put in place, has it made any difference, has it actually led to better outcomes, and is it actually workable? So I’m still waiting for that advice. I’m not going to suggest something unless I believe it’s going to make a positive difference for the health and safety of New Zealanders.

JESSICA Personally, do you like the idea?

JUDITH Well, I’d like to have more information on it, and it certainly sounds like an idea that’s worth looking at. But until I get the facts, then I can’t make a decision on it.

JESSICA But it’s something you’re looking at favourably?

JUDITH Well, I’m looking at what the facts are, and I certainly wouldn’t be suggesting anything unless where it has worked— has been put in place overseas that it’s made a difference for the health and safety of New Zealanders. That’s what I want to know about.

JESSICA Because isn’t this about holding people to account? It’s when there’s a whole group of people who are liable for something. Doesn’t someone need to be held accountable, and doesn’t the public want that, particularly in these cases?

JUDITH I think people do want to have those who they believe have let down others and it’s resulted in deaths that they do want to see them held accountable. Whether that’s through a corporate manslaughter charge or whether it’s through some other charge, then that’s still to be determined. But I think it’s worthwhile looking at it. But as I say, it’s worked— it’s been put in place in some other countries. I want to know what’s been the result of it, or is it simply window-dressing to make someone feel that something’s happened? So let’s find out the facts, and if it comes out that we should have it, then that’s what I’ll be recommending.

JESSICA I also want to put to you a poll that we’ve done – a recent ONE News Colmar Brunton poll. We’ve asked people who should be the next leader after the election. Now, the results say that Bill English got 23 per cent, Steven Joyce got 16 per cent, you got 11 per cent, and the rest said they didn’t know. What do you make of that poll? Do you want to be leader?

JUDITH Now, I what I want is for John Key to be the leader after the next election.

JESSICA After John Key.

JUDITH After John Key – well, that’s a matter for caucus. And, of course, caucus has quite a number of people in it who have tremendous leadership potential.

JESSICA Including yourself?

JUDITH Well, that’s for caucus to decide.

JESSICA Do you have support in caucus?

JUDITH Well, I haven’t asked for support for anything.

JESSICA Would you, do you think, though?

JUDITH Well, it’s completely hypothetical, but what I would say is we’re quite lucky in the National Party, because there are several people— and, in fact, I’d say quite a lot of the caucus has some tremendously good leadership potential and particularly some of the younger ones coming through.

JESSICA You’ve been pretty open about leadership, though, as being part of your future.

JUDITH I don’t think so. What I’ve said is I’m not here to eat my lunch, and that’s for certain. I’m here to lead the justice sector, and I’m very keen to do so.

JESSICA And you’d take on the challenge of leadership if that’s in your future too?

JUDITH Well, it’s completely hypothetical, but what I know is that I believe John Key will be the next leader after the 2014 election, and I think that he is a person of outstanding leadership, and that’s why I like working with him.

JESSICA What makes a good leader? I know behind your desk in your office you have a picture of Margaret Thatcher. What do you think are the good characteristics of a leader?

JUDITH Well, primarily, I have that picture there just to annoy the media, actually. Look, I think that there are certain things that people expect from a leader. They expect someone who has principles, they expect somebody who has courage, and they expect someone who has integrity. I would never follow a leader who doesn’t have integrity—

JESSICA Do you have those attributes?

JUDITH Well, that’s for others to decide, but I certainly try to use those attributes, but that’s true for many in my caucus. I think that we are very fortunate, and we have so many people coming through who are such great leaders in their own right.

JESSICA 11 per cent – that’s fairly high-ranking. What do you make of that poll?

JUDITH Well, I think it’s higher than David Shearer’s, so that’s what I’d say about that, but I’d also say that you’ve mentioned Bill and Steven, but there are other members of caucus who are quite capable of being a leader. But at the moment, we’ve got the best leader that I’ve ever worked with.

JESSICA And that’s a nice place to leave it. Thank you very much for your time this morning, Judith Collins.

JUDITH Thank you.

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