On The Nation

Northland candidates, National's Mark Osborne, Labour's Willow-Jean Prime and ACT's Robin Grieve, debate with Lisa Owen

Headlines:

Latest 3News-Reid Research poll shows Northland voters split on whether there should be more mining and drilling in Northland, with 48% supporting and 47% against.

National candidate Mark Osborne says there are plenty of “very successful” mines and quarries that have no issues, Labour candidate Willow-Jean Prime says the community needs to decide not Wellington and ACT candidate Robin Grieve says more mining will lead to more jobs and prosperity.

Poll of 500 voters also shows majority (56%) think Winston Peters’ decision to stand in the electorate is a serious bid to represent the region, 29% say it’s a stunt to get attention.

$1.76 billion Puhoi to Wellsford highway gets the green light from 59% of Northland voters in the poll, with 34% against the project.

Osborne says a bullet train to Northland “would be a great idea” but the most effective way to move freight is via motorways.

Prime says she knew former National MP Mike Sabin was under police investigation during last year’s general election campaign and voters should have been told then too.

Osborne says he didn’t hear rumours about Mike Sabin investigation until the end of December, Prime says that’s “hard to believe” the National party didn’t know about it earlier.

Osborne: “I categorically didn’t know and that’s the absolute honest truth”

Grieve stands by his view on having the Bible in schools, “because the country is officially a Christian country”

Lisa Owen: Good morning. Thank you for joining us this morning. If I can come first to you, Willow-Jean Prime? Briefly, why are you standing in this electorate?
Willow-Jean Prime: I’m standing because I stood last year in the general election, put up my hand to represent Northland, and I’m standing again in this by-election. We’ve got an opportunity here to vote in somebody who will be a strong voice for Northland in Parliament, and we need that because we have had years of neglect in Northland and there are a lot of issues, and therefore we need somebody who’s going to be strong, who’s going to advocate on our behalf in Wellington.
Robin Grieve from ACT, why are you standing?
Robin Grieve: Well, I’m standing up for Northland because Northland is a region that I absolutely love. I’ve lived there most of my adult life, and I know Northland. I’m also standing for the party that I believe in. I believe the ACT Party is the party that has the philosophies and the policies that would really boost Northland and make it the wonderful region that it could and should be.
Okay, National candidate is Mark Osborne. Why are you standing, Mark?
Mark Osborne: Well, look, firstly, I’d just like to say thank you for the opportunity to do this from up in Kerikeri. We’ve had a crazy day out round the region and really appreciate the opportunity. But I’m standing because I can make a difference for Northland. I’m a local man. Got good family and business up here in the north and two children in the local school system. I’ve got a great set of skills across a broad range of areas that will deliver real results for Northland. And I’m prepared and ready to take the voice of Northland to Wellington to make a real difference.
Isn’t the reality that you are standing because someone else in your party stuffed up? Doesn’t that put you on the back foot right from the get-go?
Osborne: Oh, look, no, not at all. We’re not taking anything for granted at all. We’re out there gaining the trust of the people. I’m out there talking to people, and, you know, we’re building on a great programme of work—
But you have to regain their trust, don’t you?
…7500 new jobs last year.
You have to regain their trust, given the situation you find yourself in.
Osborne: Well, look, that was then. This is now. You know, I’m looking to take it forward. I’m the candidate, and I’m looking forward to build on the great work that we’ve done and make a real difference for Northland across a broad range of economic opportunities that are up here.
Okay, when was then, Mr Osborne? When did you know that Mike Sabin was the subject of a police investigation?
Osborne: Look, I only found out when everybody else found out, so I don’t know any of the detail at all. And when he resigned at the end of January was when I knew that that had happened.
Okay, so only when he actually resigned? That’s when you’re saying that you found out something was going on? Just to be clear.
No, look, I heard the rumours at the end of December last year, but I didn’t know anything before that at all.
Okay, Mr Grieve, when did you know something was up with Mike Sabin and there was a police investigation?
Grieve: Oh, the only thing I heard was through the media, so as soon as the media knew, that’s when I heard. So I didn’t hear anything via other means.
Mrs Prime?
Prime: Well, I actually heard rumours of it during the general election last year through the Northland grapevine, so I am very interested in who knew what when. And I think that Northlanders deserve to know at the time whether there were issues going on. They should have had that information before we had the vote last year.
Mr Osborne, that’s a fair question. Should voters have known that Mike Sabin was the subject of a serious police investigation before they went to the polls? Should he have been up front and let voters know before they cast their vote in that electorate?
Osborne: Well, that’s an issue for Mike Sabin. I can’t talk about that. All I can tell you is when I found out or heard the rumours, and that was at the end of December. And, you know, his resignation at the end of January came as quite a shock, so—
Is that an issue for the National Party, though, Mr Osborne, because some people within the party were given a heads-up that an MP was under investigation. Isn’t it an issue for the party – an honesty issue?
Osborne: Well, I have no knowledge of what that heads-up may or may not have been. I can only tell you what I knew, and that was nothing right through that period.
Prime: I find it hard to believe that they didn’t know at the time, and so I am very interested in getting the answer to that question. I understand that Official Information Act requests have been made to get information about whether briefings were given on this issue, and they haven’t been forthcoming. They have been denied, in fact, declined. So I think it was important for Northlanders to know last year in the general election if there were these issues.
Mr Osborne, you were the treasurer. You were the treasurer in that electorate. How is it possible that you did not know this was going on?
Osborne: Well, I categorically didn’t know, and that’s the absolute honest truth. So the reality is I didn’t know, so I can’t talk about something that I didn’t know if I didn’t know it.
Shouldn’t you have known, though?
Osborne: Well, I don’t know. I don’t even know the details of what the allegations are. So, look, the reality is I didn’t know, I don’t know what the details are, I still don’t know, Mike has resigned, we’ve gone through a by-election, we’ve gone through a process, and I’m sitting here today looking forward to the future of Northland.
Well, let’s bring Paddy Gower in here. Winston Peters couldn’t be with us today, but let’s go to Paddy and see what Northland voters think of him standing in the electorate.
Patrick Gower: Yes, this is the closest we’ll get to Winston Peters today, and we went out and asked voters in a special 3News Reid Research poll ‘why is Winston Peters standing in Northland’? And we asked Northland voters, and look at this. 29 per cent said it was a stunt to get attention, but the rest of them – the majority of them – 56 per cent said it was a serious bid to represent Northland. And the rest didn’t know. So Winston Peters viewed as serious out there but pulling a stunt on The Nation today – a disappearing act. Back to you, Lisa.
Robin Grieve, quick-fire – stunt or a legitimate candidate in this race?
Grieve: Oh, absolutely a stunt. I mean, the man hasn’t stood in the last three elections. They haven’t cared about Northland. They don’t care about Northland at all.
Willow-Jean, a stunt or legitimate? Winston Peters
Prime: I hope he’s genuinely wanting to stand to represent Northland. I’m genuinely standing to represent Northland.
Mark Osborne, a stunt – Winston in this race?
Osborne: Well, I think that’s an issue that only Mr Peters could answer. All I could tell you is that I’m standing here because I believe I can make a genuine difference to the prosperity of the north.
All right, Mrs Prime, your own leader says that you have a slim chance of winning this, if any chance at all, so are you going to pull your punches on this? Is it going to be a ‘lite campaign’ to let Winston win?
Prime: Well, I started campaigning the day Mike Sabin resigned. I wasted no time in getting out there and talking to people about the great opportunity that this by-election presents for Northland.
But are you going to pull back and let him win?
Prime: It’s not in my nature to pull back, and we are out there every day campaigning hard for our region, for our members up there. I’m giving them an option to select—
But that’s a gift for National, isn’t it, Mrs Prime? If someone comes to you and says, ‘We’re desperate to get rid of National,’ and you say, ‘Vote Labour,’ you’re actually gifting a vote to National, aren’t you?
Prime: Well, this is for the voters to decide, so we’ve got 11 candidates in this by-election, and really it’s up to them to decide who they think is going to be the best person for the job. We’re all out there campaigning, showing what we’ve got to offer in terms of skills.
But the numbers show you’ve got no chance. You’ve got half the votes of the National candidate at the last election. The numbers tell you.
Prime: Well, I did manage to bring back that majority by over 2000 votes, and that was my first time standing. I think when the voters take into consideration the factors that have led to this by-election we’re going to see those numbers change again.
Okay, Mr Grieve, you are helping to stabilise the government by throwing your hat into this ring by splitting the right vote. You’re doing exactly what Winston Peters wants, aren’t you?
Grieve: No, not at all. We’re not splitting the vote at all. It’s the voters that actually get to vote. And this is a democracy. This is a good old by-election democracy. This is about standing up and voting your values, so there’ll be people who will vote their values, and they’ll look at we’re there representing their values. And we have a responsibility to stand so that they can support those values.
But the reality is it’s a good thing for you, isn’t it, if Winston wins? It’ll make ACT more relevant. You’re going to have more leverage with the government. It’s what you want, isn’t it?
Grieve: It’ll be the end of the world as we know it if Winston was to win. That’s the last thing we want, because Winston winning gives us Peter Dunne. And Peter Dunne gives us the end of RMA reform, and that’s the end of Northland as we know it. That’ll be a decade before we get back to looking at the RMA again.
Okay, let’s bring Mark Osborne back into the discussion. Generations of loyalty to National have got Northlanders what? An 8 per cent unemployment rate and I think it’s about 57 per cent of people up there earning $12,000 a year or less. How is that an advertisement to vote for National?
Osborne: Oh, well, let’s get some facts on the table here.
Those are facts, Mr Osborne.
Osborne: Seven and half thousand— Sorry?
Those are facts.
Osborne: Well, 7500 new jobs in Northland last year. You know, that’s great progress. A thousand less people on benefits. You know, tremendous opportunities coming through with the Northland economic growth around a range of areas. So there’s some great progress being made. You know, we can always make more progress, and we’re looking forward to a strong, solid National-led government to make that happen. And the only way to make that happen is a vote for me.
Prime: I’m really interested to see where those 7500 jobs are that Mark is referring to. The claim is 7500 jobs last year. I am out in the communities canvassing during the by-election, and I’m asking them if they know where these new jobs are, and the response I’m getting is they aren’t there.
Grieve: Well, there are jobs. I’m an employer.
Prime: 7500 new jobs?
Grieve: We don’t know how many jobs have been lost. The thing is, firstly, there’s National been there this long. Now they’re saying what’s going to happen – like we’re on the cusp of something. Well, what is this cusp? It’s about what should’ve been happening and what we want to happen right away. Why are National sitting on their hands? The government confuses its role. The government’s role is quite clear. It’s there to provide infrastructure and protect citizens. And that’s the two things that Northland needs more than anything else.
We’re going to talk more about development in Northland after the break. We will talk more about this after the break. We’ll be back with more from our candidates shortly, and Paddy will have an exclusive poll result on what Northlanders think about mining, drilling, and also the Puhoi-Wellsford Highway.
Gower: And welcome back. And another key issue in the North. Should the Puhoi to Wellsford Highway go ahead? Well, here we go. 59 per cent of voters say, “Yes, get that road going up there,” and the rest that say no – 34 per cent -- while the others don’t know. So a clear majority for, “Should the Puhoi to Wellsford Highway go ahead?” And looking at another big issue in the North. More mining and drilling in Northland? Well, here we go again. 48 per cent say yes, but it is very divided. In fact, totally divided. 47 per cent say no; the rest didn’t know. Another big issue in the North, where things are divided. Over to you, Lisa.
Thanks, Paddy. Let’s see what our candidates think of that. Mrs Prime, more drilling and mining in Northland. Yes or no?
Prime: Well, according to that poll, you can see it’s really divided in the community, and that’s what I’m hearing on the campaign trail is that the community is divided over mining in Northland, and I believe it is important that that is a conversation our community has before any decision for extraction is made. I stand for it being a community decision. It needs to be process that we’re involved in.
But that’s sitting on the fence.
Prime: No, it’s not.
And when you’ve got them split down the middle like that, it’s not—
Prime: No, it’s not sitting on the fence. What I think is important is this issue has to be taken to the community. We shouldn’t simply make the laws in Wellington and allow extraction to go ahead without involving the community in that. It’s about our environment; it’s about our future generation.
Robin Grieve. Is Mrs Prime sitting on the fence?
Grieve: Absolutely she’s sitting on the fence. She’s probably pretty sore already. The thing is you have to make a call. I mean, it’s quite clear everywhere you go – regions, states, round the world, regions in New Zealand that have drilling, mining, exploration – they do well. They prosper. Northland needs to prosper. We have the resources. We’re rich in resources.
Prime: How will Northland prosper from mining?
Grieve: We’ll prosper because we have the jobs. And the stats are quite clear. You look at the average incomes across Australia -- between mining states and non-mining states – look at New Zealand – Taranaki area – big increases in incomes across the board. And that’s what you get with mining industries. They generally pay pretty well.
Prime: Well, I actually think that business case is yet to be seen. We haven’t seen that information. This is what people are promising or quoting as going to happen in our area, but we haven’t actually seen the proper business case for it. So I think before we move exploration into extraction, we actually need to sit down, look to make sure we’ve got the appropriate environmental protection mechanisms. We need to consult our community.
OK, let’s bring Mark in. Mrs Prime seems to be against this, maybe, sitting on the fence. What are you thinking, Mark?
Osborne: Look, I think it’s pretty clear. Northland needs significant economic development and jobs. That’s the way to the future of prosperity up here. So we need to take the opportunity now to explore and understand what opportunities might be available to us out there around oil, mining, etc. Once we understand those opportunities, we can then look at how they may or may not be engaged with, and how we may or may not extract –
Hang on. It sounds like you’re sitting on the fence as well.
Grieve: Government needs to stay out of it. This is about the people.
Prime: No, the government needs to absolutely have a role in this so that we ensure that we mitigate any risks for Northland. This is our environment; this is our coastline; this is our communities; these are our people. You can see the community is divided over this issue, and I think that the role of an MP from Northland is to strongly advocate on behalf of our communities.
Mark Osborne jump in. You wanted to say something to that.
Osborne: Can I just finish my answer, please? What I was saying is we absolutely need the economic development and the opportunities that may bring, but we need to absolutely understand what those opportunities are and what the risks are and make sure that measures are in place to manage that. I drive 1000km a week around the district right now, and I see plenty of quarries and mines all over the place. We’ve got the china clays in Matauri Bay; we’ve got lime pits. And they’ve been there for years. They’ve been working very successfully without any issue whatsoever.
Prime: But actually, what I think the issue is for our people in Northland is not about that type of mining, Mark; it’s the oil-drilling and toxic mining that the community are divided over.
Grieve: Well, there you go. No wonder the poll says what it says. Because people hearing words like “toxic mining”. We’re opposed to toxic mining. Everyone’s opposed to toxic mining. But what is toxic mining? It’s a made-up word by people who sit on fences and don’t make calls for the economic development of the country.
Prime: Or read research (!)
Okay, I want to talk about the Puhoi-Wellsford Motorway here. Mark Osborne. 58 per cent of Northlanders say that they want this to go ahead. But the thing is more than twice as many people travel on the Auckland rail system than do on that motorway on any day. So why spend all of that money on a road?
Osborne: Well, it’s not just about people travelling, is it? It’s about goods and produce and opening up the North. Auckland is Northland’s closest major centre, and it’s a pretty big one and a pretty impressive one. And if we really want unlock the enormous potential that Northland has, that motorway must go ahead, and the only way to make sure that motorway goes ahead is to vote me in as the National MP for Northland, to ensure strong, stable, John Key-led government.
Mr Osborne, one of our viewers, Elizabeth Batt, says, “Why don’t you just go the whole hog and get a bullet train if you want unlock the region?” Why not?
Osborne: A bullet train? Well, absolutely. What a great idea.
So you’re going to campaign on that, Mr Osborne?
Osborne: On a bullet train?
Yeah.
Osborne: It’s more about moving people. It’s about moving produce. It’s about getting good services in and out. And the most effective way to do that is through the motorway system.
Prime: Well, that’s only one part of our road system in Northland, obviously, and I’m on the Far North District Council, and we are dealing with huge infrastructure issues there. We are doing a scratch-and-patch job on our roads in Northland. So the Puhoi to Wellsford is one part of the roading network. But what about the roads further north? There are just over 30 per cent of our roads that are tar-sealed. The rest are still metal. So where is the commitment from government to help us?
So what are you saying, Mrs Prime? That they should, as Labour suggests put that highway on hold and spend the money on those other things?
Prime: The first stage of it is going to go ahead. The project’s going to be commenced in this term anyway. Beyond that, I think we need to have a good look at the business case for it. This failure of the State Highway 1 network during last year’s storm event in Northland cut us off for more than 10 days, getting our produce out to—
Because Labour’s Kelvin Davis, he wants that highway. He supports it.
Grieve: And good on him.
Prime: The highway and the rest of the roads in Northland as well. What about the people in Kaitaia who I met with on Monday? It’s important to them. Their infrastructure. They’re having issues.
Grieve: Well, this is a mistake that people make, and you’re one of them. This is not about one or the other. It’s not about because we have the Puhoi extension motorway, we don’t get the road over there. If you look at roading funding, there are big problems with roading funding, and it’s more to do with the formulas, and you’d know about this, and it’s more about councils getting out of the way of people who are trying to build roads and get their RMA reforms so people can build roads cheaper. But the point is…
Osborne: Can I come in on this, Lisa?
Let Mark have a say. Let’s bring Mark in. Your response, Mark?
Osborne: Okay. Look, I’ll give you a couple of facts and figures. You know, look, we accept that Northland has some quite unique conditions. There’s a clay base. We get significant and severe weather instances up here, and that causes major issues for our roading. Look, I’ll give you a couple of numbers. The National Government in its most recent two terms has spent $750 million on the Northland roading infrastructure. The Labour government—
I want to move on from roading, Mr Osborne—
Osborne: …in the equivalent period spent 390.
Prime: And the roads are still in a mess.
I want to move on from roads, please. I just want to know very quickly from you all, starting with Mr Grieve, should more government offices be moving out of the big centres and heading to places like Northland?
Grieve: Hell no. What’s the last thing we want to inflict the people of Northland with? Bureaucrats. We don’t want more people coming into the region.
Mrs Prime?
Prime: We want more jobs in the region, so if that’s going to create more employment in Northland, absolutely we should look at that.
Mark Osborne, what about moving migrants – making it a condition of coming into the country that you might have to move up to Northland? What do you think of that?
Osborne: Well, we’ve got plenty of people in Northland looking for jobs, as you pointed out earlier, and we’ve got a great plan to create jobs and economic growth for them. So we’d like to make sure that our people here get jobs first.
Grieve: So we’re not going to force migrants to go and live in the regions. I mean, you know, that’s an idea that comes out that you’re going to bully people around and say, ‘You’ve got to live there and live there.’ Governments have got to stop living people’s lives for them. People will go where they were— where they want to go. I was in Dargaville yesterday, and I tell you what a lovely town Dargaville is. I drove through Dargaville; I parked my car; I didn’t have to pay any parking; I parked; I walked across—
What are you saying? People will go and live there of their own free choice?
Grieve: It’s a lovely place to live if you want to live, but you want to force people to go and live somewhere?
Mr Grieve, you just mentioned free choice there. Very quickly, in a tweet last year, you said that New Zealand’s a Christian country and that is why parents should accept the Bible in schools. Does your leader believe that? Leader of the ACT Party?
Grieve: Well, I’m not sure what the leader believes, but that’s actually a state of fact. That’s not— We are.
I thought ACT was about letting people decide what they do. You just said that in relation to moving to Northland.
Grieve: Well, absolutely. I mean, we support that, but the country officially is a Christian country, so therefore we have Christian things which go on. If you don’t want to be a Christian country, then you wouldn’t have the Bible in the schools. The point of the tweet was we teach Bible in school, not Buddhism or other religions because we are officially a Christian country.
Right. Just before we go, I want to give you each the opportunity to tell me your favourite secret getaway spot in Northland. Willow-Jean Prime, what’s yours?

Prime: Hihi.
Grieve: Mine is Russell. My daughter married there the other weekend, and it’s the most romantic, beautiful spot in the world.
And Mark Osborne?
Osborne: Oh, look, there’s so many, but if I had to pick one, where I live in Taipa in the Far North. It’s beautiful.
All right, thank you very much to all the candidates who joined us today. Willow-Jean Prime, Robin Grieve and Mark Osborne, thank you very much.
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