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Q + A Episode 9 JOHN KEY Interviewed by CORIN DANN

Q + A Episode 9 JOHN KEY Interviewed by CORIN DANN

CORIN Why is it that so few New Zealanders seem to buy your argument that this about terrorism, sending troops to fight against ISIS?

JOHN Well, firstly, I suspect people, despite what they actually might say in a poll, probably think there’s a variety of reasons why the Government makes the decisions that it’s made. I accept that they might say their primary reason is because we are fighting alongside others for whom we have a shared and likeminded view in history. But, actually, what I can tell New Zealanders quite clearly is I genuinely and utterly believe that a stronger ISIL presents a real threat to New Zealand. I think that they want to bring the war to New Zealand. Unless we help degrade that risk, I think they will present a greater threat, not only just in our country with potentially returning freedom fighters or those that they can actually talk into trying to engage locally, but actually in the region where there are some very large Muslim countries like Malaysia and Indonesia, or in this region of the world, which is a real hot spot, obviously, in terms of terrorism.

CORIN But how can you send troops to war when the vast bulk of New Zealanders don’t seem to buy your argument?

JOHN I don’t think they oppose, actually, us doing that. We haven’t polled ourselves, so I’ve only seen a few public polls. But generally speaking, there’s been a majority. I accept it’s a slim majority but nevertheless been a majority of the view— who have been of the view that we’re doing the right thing in doing this. And as I said to you, I mean, we are working alongside our partners, unashamedly so, and alongside a great many other countries.

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CORIN Because you call it a club and then you tried to sort of say, ‘No, it wasn’t about the club.’ I mean, there seems to be some element of confusion here.

JOHN No, I think people are confusing my comments. If you go and have a look at the full interview I did with the BBC, I made it quite clear. I said, ‘Yes, you know, there is a club that we support and we syndicate risk sometimes,’ but that club in this case is 60-odd people. I mean, when we sent nurses to Sierra Leone, for instance, we did that not because I thought we would get Ebola in New Zealand, but I knew that if Ebola was more widespread it would be dangerous.

CORIN I’ll take you up on that point. I mean, that’s what New Zealand stands for – doing its part in the world. Do you share Tony Abbott’s view that this is about protecting values, a way of life?

JOHN Yes, to a certain degree. There’s no question that the people who fight for ISIL will have a completely different world view, a world perspective, not only from, I’d say, the average New Zealander, but they also don’t believe there’s a place for the average New Zealander on the planet. And these people take a very specific—

CORIN That’s worth fighting for? That’s something that New Zealanders should fight for?

JOHN Well—

CORIN To stop that particular world view?

JOHN Well, if we don’t, and let’s take the counter-argument to that, and ISIL become a much stronger force and they become much more dominant in their actions in New Zealand and other countries around the world that we travel to, then New Zealanders will be put in harm’s way.

CORIN You yourself said in your speech, your ‘get some guts’ speech, you talked about beheadings of Jordanian pilots. You talked about standing up and doing the right thing.

JOHN Yeah.

CORIN You’re about to go to Saudi Arabia,…

JOHN Yeah.

CORIN …where they have a human rights record that is very questionable. They have beheadings; women can’t drive.

JOHN Yes.

CORIN What sort of values do we share with them?

JOHN Yeah, well, firstly, it’s true that I’m going to be the first prime minister of New Zealand ever to go to Saudi Arabia, and they have some human rights that we absolutely don’t support and don’t agree with. But there are other countries that we trade with and that I travel to and that many other New Zealanders travel to that also have human rights discrepancies that we would not support or agree with. But the question is how can you ch—?

CORIN On the logic of that argument, does that mean that if ISIL became a state and somehow miraculously formed a proper government, we could do trade with them?


JOHN Yeah, but with the greatest of respect to Saudi Arabia, they are taking those kinds of steps, and I utterly reject them and don’t believe they should do that. But they are taking it against their own citizens. They’re not looking to basically get to the point where they murder New Zealanders in their own country or in parts of the region that they travel to simply because we disagree with their perspective on the world. My only point would be that there are many countries that we have these disagreements with. We do trade with them, and we do travel and go and see them. The question is, over time, can you make changes? I think if we get a free trade agreement, for instance, with Saudi Arabia, we have got a much stronger relationship from which we can talk about a range of issues. If you take China, for instance, a country that’s often quoted, we now have a very strong relationship with China, and we do talk to them about a huge range of issues.

CORIN Sure. The Anzac message here. We’re talking about a joint operation with New Zealand and Australia. I know you’ve put a lot of emphasis on keeping New Zealand’s independence. Tony Abbott has talked about the sons of Anzac. He’s made it pretty clear that there’s a link between what happened in Gallipoli and sending troops to this particular conflict. Do you share that view?

JOHN Well, I think, in fairness, what he just trying to say is this is yet another example-

CORIN In fairness, Prime Minister, we’re talking about a politician, we’re talking about rhetoric, we’re talking about a message being drilled into people that this is about going and doing their bit for the world.

JOHN Yeah, so, I’m not responsible for the particular analogies and statements that Tony Abbott makes. I can give you my own view, and I think linking those two runs a risk that I think you can both offend and take out of context, you know, different campaigns. But in the case of the Gallipoli campaign here, we know as a matter of fact that was the first time that Australians and New Zealanders fought alongside each other, and that Anzac bond was formed. And when our soldiers are training others alongside the Australians in Taji Air Base, it will again be an example where we are alongside Australia. I think that’s all he meant by that.

CORIN So purely coincidence that they were going, that are troops are leaving at the same time as Anzac Day. I mean, why couldn’t they have gone sooner?

JOHN I don’t honestly know the timing. You know, the military tend to organise all those logistics themselves. But they need to be there for May, so I think it is roughly around this time they are required.

CORIN Just finally, the issues that have dogged you this week on the ponytail gate, some are calling it. Has this damaged your credibility as Prime Minister?

JOHN Well, look, I hope not. All I can say is I’ve tried to give a little bit on context around the situation. I’ve reflected, obviously, on it. Clearly, I’ve completely misread the situation. I have to take total responsibility for that. I should have read the situation much better, and I shouldn’t have done the things I’ve done. And obviously I regret that, and I regret any harm that that’s caused the young lady in question.

CORIN Will you change the way you campaign and interact with the public as a result of this?

JOHN Yeah, look, I need to make sure I’m a bit more careful. I think I’ve been trying a little too hard, obviously, in that situation to have a bit of fun and kid around.

CORIN Are you questioning yourself in the back of your mind? Are you suddenly in that position where you’re having to think, ‘Boy, how did I get this so wrong?’ Are you having to double guess yourself now?

JOHN I think it’s the opposite to what some people might think - that there’s a power imbalance. It’s actually the opposite. I’ve been mucking in sort of a little bit and having a bit of fun. I accept that, but, actually, in doing that, I’ve badly misread a situation. And all I’m simply saying is from every experience that you have in life, you can’t reverse things that have happened as much as you might 100% want to. But what you can do is learn from them, and I have to mark this down as something I got wrong, and therefore I have to learn from it.

CORIN You’ve got people now calling you creepy. Do you think that you can continue to maintain the same level of popularity? Is this going to be a turning point for you?

JOHN Well, I hope so. There will always be people that will call me names, but there’s also a lot of people who know me well, and there’s people that know that I am a friendly guy that likes to interact with the public. I do have a bit of a laugh, and I’m probably the most casual prime minister New Zealand’s had. There’s been some real advantages of that. Occasionally there’s some disadvantages. I can’t say any more than what I’ve said, which is, in the end, it was a very casual environment. I knew the people well. I kidded round with them a lot. That was part of that. When you look at it played back in the media this week, it looks awful. At the time, people would have said it was- for the most part, most people would have said it was a bit of a laugh. But, actually, I got that wrong, and I have to apologise, and that’s what I’ve done. Unfortunately, I can’t change what’s happened. I has happened now. I just have to live with that.

ENDS

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