Light Change of Direction Possible in Decriminalising Marijuana Debate: Dunne

Associate Health Minister Peter Dunne, in New York this week to attend a special meeting on the so-called War on Drugs, says New Zealand won’t be decriminalising the use of cannabis any time soon, but there’s a “change of direction” about how the issue’s being regarded by law makers.

“Over the next couple of years we’re going to be doing work looking at the proportion between criminal sanctions and health solutions in terms of small cases of individual use,” Mr Dunne told Q+A’s Jessica Mutch.

“That doesn’t mean we’re about to decriminalise. There’s no majority in Parliament for doing that, so that’s not going to happen, and people who think that that day’s just around the corner are sadly forlorn. But I think it’s again part of a shifting emphasis, it’s part of a change in direction, and … these things do take a little bit of time to achieve.”

Mr Dunne said the message from the UN meeting will be the ‘War on Drug’ hasn’t worked – something he says New Zealand’s been saying in international forums for some time.

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Q + A
Episode 96
PETER DUNNE
Interviewed by JESSICA MUTCH

JESSICA I want to start off by asking you – many of the countries around the world have come to this UN meeting with the message that the war on drugs hasn’t worked. Do you agree with that approach?

PETER Yes, I do. In fact, it’s been something New Zealand has been saying at these sorts of international meetings for a little while now, that we need to have an approach that’s more health-centred, recognising that the people who are affected by drugs are primarily suffering from a health condition. That doesn’t mean there aren’t legal sanctions, but the very aggressive, quite vicious tone of the war on drugs has failed, it’s bad rhetoric, and I think it’s time to move on from it.

JESSICA When you saying ‘having a health approach’, practically, what does that mean?

PETER If you look at our national drug policy we released last August, it really focuses on the health of the individual who’s affected. It talks about the sorts of initiatives we need to make to ensure that we can deal with them as a health issue. In fact, we began this work some years ago with the Prime Minister’s initiative around methamphetamine. Our methamphetamine strategy, which is about four or five years old and is pretty internationally well renowned, was the first of this focus of really shifting to make sure we treat the victims of methamphetamine use as health problems rather than justice problems. That’s why we have the dedicated beds in hospitals, for instance. So New Zealand has been in this realm for some time, and over the years that I’ve been coming to these international meetings, it’s been noticeable that many other countries are moving into the same space. In fact, I think probably a majority of countries at the general assembly this week will be of a similar view to our own.

JESSICA Practically, though, do you think that will mean fewer people in prisons for some of the more low-level drug use?

PETER It’s possible over time, but I’m not saying that we simply scrap the law immediately; I’m not saying that things are going to change quickly. But I think that the focus is important. Again, in New Zealand, what we’re looking at is a series of steps around three principles I’ve set out previously – compassion, proportion and innovation. And I think the point you’re making really relates to that proportionate issue – are the penalties we’re imposing proportionate to the crimes being committed, proportionate to the impacts being suffered? I think we will see change, but it will take a little while, and I think, again, that’s where most countries around the world are moving. Most countries will say candidly, ‘Look, we’ve tried the harsh sentences; we’ve tried the extremes. Frankly, they haven’t worked. It’s time now to take new initiatives.’

JESSICA Why haven’t they worked, do you think? Because for most people sitting at home, they’ll think a hard, staunch approach on drugs is the best way to go. Why do you not think that approach has worked?

PETER I think it’s the same reason, really, that some of the really hard-line steps against alcohol haven’t worked, because people are people – people will try new things; people like to experiment. And so therefore, you’ve got people who get to a certain point in their usage where they can’t control it; they’re addicted. And addiction is a health problem, and that’s what we need to focus on. I think it was actually easy for countries to use the language of the war on drugs and to, sort of, say, ‘We’re going to smash the international drug cartels,’ and all of that sort of thing, because it actually let them off the hook of treating the impacts of drug use on populations. And I think that’s now changing, because people are realising that no matter how harsh you are, you still have the issues in front of you.

JESSICA And talking about that health focus, do you think here in New Zealand we’ll be pumping more resources into helping people who are addicted, rather than putting them in jail and forgetting about them?

PETER I would like to think we will over time. As I say, this is a bit like turning a super tanker around – you can’t just suddenly say, ‘We’re changing stance overnight.’ But our national drug policy, which was released last August, which is a five-year strategy, does set out a number of steps towards the achievement of that policy, and it’s something, as I say, that, I think, is pretty much aligned with the international mainstream these days, and I think that the discussion this coming week will focus on those sorts of things, rather than who can be the harshest. It’s very interesting that one of the big areas of tensions where New Zealand will have a difference from other countries is over the death penalty. Russia and China, the death penalty states, and one or two others are fighting every move to try and include formal reference to abolition of the death penalty in the conference statement. We take a strong view that the death penalty needs to be excluded because it’s not just, not fair. But I think that’s a good example of the tension between those who still hanker after the war on drugs and those taking a more progressive approach.

JESSICA Do you think that’s something you will be able to achieve with this meeting? Taking death penalties off the table?

PETER No, I don’t. I think what will happen is there will be some words in the declaration that will acknowledge the rights of states to impose their own legal sanctions, but there’s no doubt that the mood of the majority of countries here would be strongly opposed to the retention of the death penalty. That move started to become obvious in Vienna last year. When we were in Vienna last March, it was around the time of the Bali nine case coming to its awful conclusion, and I recall the Indonesians were running an information stall explaining why they were using the death penalty, and I watched it several times during the conference. No one was going anywhere near it. I think that’s an example of just how people have moved on. They don’t see that sort of behaviour as acceptable. But whether we can get something into the declaration, I think, is unlikely.

JESSICA Russia has taken a very hard-line stance – zero tolerance – to drugs. Their stance, how is that going to impact on the rest of the meeting? Do you need to have everyone on board to be able to shift to this more health focus that you talk about?

PETER No, I think what we’ll get will be a declaration which will encompass – as the UN things tend to do – a range of views. But there’s no doubt from the plenary sessions, as they unfold, that the countries like Russia, China and some of the Middle Eastern states that take a very hard line will be in a very small minority. And even they start to couch their positions in terms of saying, ‘We do take a compassionate approach. That’s why we have such a harsh judicial system, because it’s cruel to be kind.’ So I think even though their behaviour doesn’t justify it, I think what they’re trying to do is position themselves as shifting a little bit along that continuum, because they know that they’re on to very much a loser at this stage. They know that they’re the minority states.

JESSICA You’ve used words like ‘compassion’ and more of a health focus this morning. Are we softening our stance on drugs, in your opinion?

PETER No, we’re not softening our stance. We know that too many people are adversely affected by the misuse of drugs. What we’re doing is shifting the emphasis to say, ‘Let’s deal with them, in terms of their circumstances, in terms of, if you like, getting them back to a normal situation.’ And a very harsh judicial stance isn’t always going to be the way to do it. There will be cases where that’s appropriate. Certainly in respect of those who supply and manufacture illegal drugs, I think that the law needs to take its full course. But often with individuals that are the innocent victims, I think we need to take a much more realistic and compassionate approach.

JESSICA Decriminalising cannabis, has that been talked about at the meeting? And how does New Zealand’s stance on that compare to others you’ve talked with?

PETER Well, the meeting actually begins on Monday, so the formal discussions haven’t begun. I don’t think we’re going to get into that type of specific country-by-country detail. What we tend to do at these sorts of discussions is look at overall situations, differing situations in different countries. I think in New Zealand, the focus of our national drug policy is on making sure that, firstly, as I say, the focus is health, which means that over the next couple of years we’re going to be doing work looking at the proportion between criminal sanctions and health solutions in terms of small cases of individual use. That doesn’t mean we’re about to decriminalise. There’s no majority in Parliament for doing that, so that’s not going to happen, and people who think that that day’s just around the corner are sadly forlorn. But I think it’s again part of a shifting emphasis, it’s part of a change in direction, and as I say, these things do take a little bit of time to achieve.

JESSICA You’ve been walking the halls and corridors of power in New York. Have you bumped into Helen Clark at all? And what do you think of her chances? What are you hearing on the ground?

PETER I haven’t bumped into her. We may get a chance to do that, I think, possibly Tuesday. What I’m hearing is a lot of interest in the contest, everyone being very coy at this stage about favourites. In fact, there’s more immediate talk here about the New York primary coming up – Trump, Clinton and what’s going on in the American presidential race, at this stage, which seems to be dominating all the news.

JESSICA Well, that’s a nice place to leave it. Thank you very much for your time this morning, Peter Dunne.

PETER Thank you.

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