AUSTRALIA HAS LOST ITS MORAL COMPASS: DAVID SHEARER

The Australian policy for detaining refugees indefinitely is unsustainable, according to Labour’s spokesperson for foreign affairs, David Shearer.

Responding to a leak this week of thousands of documents highlighting abuse, assault and self-harm amongst refugees housed in detention centres of Nauru, David Shearer told Q+A’s Jessica Mutch that New Zealand needed to step up.

“I think when the report came out last week, it shocked us all. In many ways, it reiterated what others had been saying and highlighted the fact that this policy is unsustainable,” he said.

I mean, it’s almost like Australia has lost its moral compass in terms of where it’s going. And I really do think that New Zealand, however it can, it should make the offer anyway and say, “Look, what is it we can do to sort of short-circuit this and bring these camps to an end?”

Mr Shearer said New Zealand, which is taking 150 refugees from Nauru, should only be doing so if the camps are going to be completely closed down.

“If they’re simply replaced by another 150 or however many, then we are complicit in the policy, and that’s something we certainly don’t want to be a part of.”

END

Q + A

Episode 923

DAVID SHEARER

Interviewed by Jessica Mutch

JESSICA Natasha painted a pretty brutal picture of what happens on Nauru. What do you think we in New Zealand should be doing?

DAVID She does paint a pretty brutal picture, as you say. There are two issues – one is obviously the conditions that are in there; the bigger issue is about the indefinite detention that they are under. I mean, it’s not like a prison sentence where you know whether you’re going to be out in five years or whatever. These people are here, or there, for the foreseeable future. And I think that is the real part of why they are feeling as they are, and part of the problem. I think when the report came out last week, it shocked us all. In many ways, it reiterated what others had been saying and highlighted the fact that this policy is unsustainable. I mean, it’s almost like Australia has lost its moral compass in terms of where it’s going. And I really do think that New Zealand, however it can, it should make the offer anyway and say, “Look, what is it we can do to sort of short-circuit this and bring these camps to an end?”

JESSICA What is it that we can offer?

DAVID Well, the government has already said to the Australian government that we can take 150 refugees. Now, I disagree in the way they did that, because it means that Australia decides who our refugees are. That’s giving away our sovereign right to Australia to establish who are going to be potential citizens in our country.

JESSICA Does it also help? Because if we take 150, another 150 go there.

DAVID Exactly. And that’s the other really important point. If we were to intervene and get involved in this, it would have to be on the basis that these camps are going to close down and that we are helping to do that. As you say, if they’re simply replaced by another 150 or however many, then we are complicit in the policy, and that’s something we certainly don’t want to be a part of.

JESSICA Is the reality of this situation that a lot of Australians citizens actually want these asylum seekers to just stay on Nauru, to make it not their problem? Do you think that we feel differently about it here in New Zealand?

DAVID I think we do. It’s interesting the contrast that happened in Australia just recently, where there was detention in the Northern Territories of young people and they were abused. The difference between the reaction to that and the reaction to these people on Nauru and Manus Island, where in a sense, it’s been kind of not only pushed under the carpet, but it’s been made, as we heard, you can go to jail for two years for reporting on what you see as an aid worker or as a doctor in these islands as well. I mean, that is extraordinary that you go to that length in order to try and cover up what’s going on there. But you can only do that to some degree when you have a degree of popular backing behind you. But I do think that Australia’s reputation is being diminished as a result of that. And if we can, as New Zealanders, do something in order to be able to bring this to an end, I think we should actually put up our hands and say, “Look, it’s the Pacific; it’s our backyard; we should be doing something as well.”

JESSICA So in terms of the number, do you think 150 is the right number and you just think that we should get to choose and select? Is that what you think?

DAVID Look, I don’t think we should get into numbers, quite frankly. I don’t like the policy that John Key gave away the right to choose refugees to Australia. I thought that was ridiculous. I don’t think any country does that. What I do think we need to be doing is sitting down with the Australians and saying, “How can we do this?” We did this with the Tampa refugees many years ago. We took refugees off the Tampa freighter. As a result of that, it in a sense short-circuited the whole problem, probably helped John Howard to win the election that year, actually, but nevertheless… And to be honest, actually, the Tampa refugees in New Zealand are doing fabulously well. But it solved the problem at the time. I think we can possibly do the same thing here, but it would have to be, quite as you say, it would have to be on the condition that this policy ended.

JESSICA I want to change tack a little bit here and talk to you about Helen Clark. How confident are you now, given these recent polls that have come out that she will be successful for this job at the UN?

DAVID Look, I think you’d have to say that it’s been a bit of a disappointment, the fact that the last straw poll, she had more ‘discourages’ – I think up to eight ‘discourages’ out of 15. And you would have to probably imagine that some of those were from the Permanent Five. There’s 15 members of the Security Council; Permanent Five have the same vote, but they have a special vote. When it comes to the end of the day, the real vote, their vote, is a veto. So if they disagree, then that person is effectively— well, it’s not an out, but they have to go around until they get the thing through. So this will be discouraging for her.

JESSICA Do you think it’s damaging for her to stay in? Do you think she should pull out?

DAVID I think she’s going to have to make that call herself. I mean, it will get to the point where that might be a factor. I think her real chance, if you like, was always whether— if they could— there was no agreement on particularly an East European, between Russia and the United States, that she would be, in the sense, the compromise candidate that would come through the middle. She had all the— all the, sort of— the qualifications to do the job. It’s a little less sure now that she would be able to run through the centre. The centre seems to be closing a bit. It’s really up to her. I think the next vote is on the 29th of August. Maybe she’ll see it through to the third, through a poll, see how she goes and make a call after that.

JESSICA To domestic politics now – the Labour Party this week – Andrew Little has come out picking a fight with Nick Leggett, the mayoral candidate for Wellington. Is that smart?

DAVID Oh, look, obviously, Andrew says it how he sees it. I mean, that’s just the way it is. I think it’s got an extraordinary amount of coverage that probably is unwarranted, to be perfectly honest.

JESSICA Why do you say that? Why do you think it’s unwarranted?

DAVID Because I think it’s largely a beltway issue, frankly. I think it’s mainly around the edges. I mean, I was at the footy yesterday, and I can guarantee nobody came up to me and talked about, you know, left wing or right wing. They were talking about housing to me, but it certainly wasn’t front of mind of most New Zealanders.

JESSICA Does it not show on a political programme like this, though, that Andrew Little is perhaps thin-skinned? You’ve been in that position. Is it hard not to take things personally?

DAVID Oh, of course. If you’re in a— certainly, a situation where, you know, you’ve got— I know from my own point of view, I mean, you would have people blogging against you, you know, probably consistently and probably in an organised fashion for a long time. But, you know, at the end of the day, I just didn’t read the blogs, with apologies to the people who are sitting on the panel today. But I just didn’t think it was worth it. It’s really about— more about, I guess, focusing on what the important stuff is – here at the moment, the housing issues and things.

JESSICA But Nick Leggett can bring that younger vote in. Isn’t that what Labour should be trying to do – solidify that support, aim for that centrist vote? Shouldn’t it be firming up those people like Nick Leggett?

DAVID Well, Andrew is very aware that we need to firm up that centre vote. I mean, we’ve talked about that a lot in caucus and outside. I don’t think that there’s any issue around that. So, you know, it’s just a matter of getting on and getting the main issues, I guess, the issues of housing and what’s happening with work, where we’re going as a party and what the issues that people are talking about, as I say, on the football field, as opposed to in blogs and that sort of thing.

JESSICA Well, we’ll leave it there. Thank you very much for your time this morning. Really appreciate it.

DAVID Thanks, Jess.

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