On The Nation: Patrick Gower interviews Winston Peters
Youtube clips from the show are available here.

Headlines:

Winston Peters says 300 foreign students caught up in the closure of their International school in Auckland should be allowed to stay in this country, because it’s fraudulent immigration agents who are to blame.

Peters says Tertiary Education Minister Steven Joyce should be fired over the issue, but he won’t rule out working with him in government after the next election.

Peters says the new New Zealand People’s Party is a front for the National Party, set up to split the vote in the Mt Roskill electorate.

Patrick Gower: Now, on our latest poll, New Zealand First had 8% of the vote and it would have meant that at the next election, Winston Peters may yet again be the so-called kingmaker; he would decide the government. But apart from that long-held view of his that immigration needs to be cut, what else does the New Zealand First party stand for? And what will Winston’s bargaining positions be? He joins me now from his party’s annual conference in Dunedin. And, Winston Peters, starting with Steven Joyce, what do you think of his handling of international education and handling of the student visa issues? What should happen?
Winston Peters: Well, look, what you’ve just seen would be absolutely risible or laughable if it weren’t so serious. He didn’t know half the facts and then he knew all the facts and then he got confused as to who was an immigrant. He had overseas students being immigrants, he had tourists being immigrants, and he was an absolute mishmash of misinformation. And at the end of the day, New Zealanders must surely understand that the reputation of their country, which now appears in newspapers in New York, has been seriously tarnished when it comes to education.
And what should happen to Steven Joyce as minister? You’ve said publicly this morning, actually, that he should be fired. Do you--?
Well, you know, in 2012, we were the ones who raised the fraud that was coming out of Chinese student applications, not Mr Joyce; New Zealand First did. And on the rest, we’re the party that’s got authenticity on this matter, not coat-tailing it like some other parties are now. In 2012, as a consequence the Chinese did pull back, and then we had export education in this country in trouble, not getting enough students because we can’t compete against the best out of Canada, the UK, Australia and the USA. And so they – Mr Key and Mr Joyce – decided that they’d offer an incentive. We’d give them a right to work 20 hours a week – that is, earn their income in New Zealand to pay for their education in New Zealand – and we’d give them – many of them – a pathway to citizenship. Those were the two incentives. And so here comes the scam. Now they’ve got a serious reason to start committing fraud.
So what should happen to Steven Joyce?
Well, Steven Joyce should have been fired a long, long time ago. How many times can you screw up and go on TV in a mass case of spin and misinformation and get away with it? I mean—
So he should be sacked?
He was going to be Mr Fix-It. No, no—On Novopay, he never fixed it.
So should he be fired as minister or not? Should he be fired as minister over this or not?
Well, of course. Look, when you see wholesale fraud going on and that has been condoned by the minister and encouraged by the minister – even though he says otherwise now – of course he should have been fired, but a long time ago.
So what would happen then in this scenario where you hold the balance of power? Would you allow Steven Joyce to be a Minister of Tertiary Education in any government that you had to be part of?
Look, Paddy, you and your media colleagues don’t get it. It is not the balance of power that New Zealand First wants. What New Zealand First wants is a dramatic economic and social change in this country, not the kind of thing you just saw on your programme where this country’s reputation has been tarnished, a country with first-world rights has seen people be abused, misused—
Okay. Okay, save this speech. Save this speech for your conference and come back to will you happily sit alongside Steven Joyce on the government benches, or is this just a load of talk?
I’m going to preface this speech like every speech I’m going to give from the last 12 months—
But what I’m saying to you, Mr Peters, is that you can’t say, ‘Oh, Steven Joyce should be fired,’ and then in 12 months’ time go and sit with him on the government benches. Give people an undertaking now that he won’t be there or else you are, quite frankly, all talk.
Well, I’ll give you an undertaking right now. How could somebody with any self-respect and integrity like Mr Joyce stay around when he knows he faces a colleague in Cabinet like Winston Peters of New Zealand First? He knows what he’s been doing is diametrically opposed to the nation’s interests and I don’t see him being there in 12 months’ time, but you guys might.
But this is the whole point.
You’re talking about a guy who’s never won a seat.
But this is the whole point.
No, sorry, Paddy.
You’ll go into government with him.
Paddy, you were going so well with him. Paddy, repeating yourself is not going to impress the audience. You can say this over and over again. I don’t think Steven Joyce will be standing up after the election night 2017 or whenever they fly the flag. There’s a huge change going on in this country. Let me tell you there’s going to be a huge protest outside an Indian MP’s Mount Roskill place this morning, today, on this issue because now you’ve got students in their hundreds. That is wrong.
On those students, then, Winston Peters, where there will be the protest day, should they get the chance at amnesty, a second chance, a chance to stay in this country if it hasn’t been their fault, if it’s been the corrupt agent in India? Should those students—?
Of course they should. Of course they should. Of course they should. We’ve said that, unlike Mr Joyce’s claim, he says they signed the application, therefore they are fully responsible. Look, the applications were prepared fraudulently by agents. They were offered jobs in New Zealand, 20 hours a week, fraudulently by agents. Everywhere you see fraud, even in terms of export education in New Zealand. Those students who are innocent should be allowed to stay because we have to rescue this country’s reputation of dealing with people, regardless of where they come from, fairly. It’s about equality and what a decent society would do. But I’d go after those agents. I’d been going after them years ago, as we have argued in Parliament for a long, long time.
Okay, another development on the immigration front that we saw this week was the start of an Indian party, the People’s Party. What are your thoughts on that? What does that show us about New Zealand, in your view, that we now have an immigrant party, an immigrant-orientated party?
Well, when you see things, don’t just believe what you see. The person that was the spokesperson and the temporary leader for that party just at a recent raffle for fundraising for the National Party offered $20,000 in a bid for the Prime Minister to have breakfast at his place. He got beaten by a bid of $27,000. This is a National Party front. I’m sure you guys in the media with the presence of mind of politics, with all your experience have picked this up, because I have.
Well, what use is it as a National Party front? It’s a political party. What use is it as a National Party front?
Because it splits other parties’ votes, and you’ll see it potentially—
No—
But probably out of them right now. But going for Mount Roskill, there were people saying yesterday that’s what they would do. They won’t be after— I’ve just told you what I’ve just told you.
So it’s a way of keeping Labour out of Mount Roskill, this People’s Party, a National Party front that’s a way of—?
Precisely. That’s why they’re based on race, been here for five minutes, demand to have a political party of their own. Which New Zealander would go to any country in Europe or Asia and demand to have their own political party?
They’re New Zealand—
We’re not getting respect here.
They’re New Zealand citizens, and they’ve been here for years, and this is a democracy, Winston Peters.
I know it’s a democracy. I know it’s a democracy.
They’re just setting up a political party – there’s nothing wrong with it. It’s all within the rules.
No, no, they’re setting up a movement based on race, and my party is utterly opposed to it. We have all sorts of people in our party — Chinese, Indian, all sorts of people.
It’s not based on race; it’s based on immigration. Okay, so on immigration—
No, no, it’s not—
…we’ll move on to that.
No, Paddy, who do you think—? Hang on. Who do you think my informant is on this Indian party? They’re Indians in New Zealand First. We know what we’re doing. Some of you guys may not.
Okay, moving on to immigration more broadly now. If you are in this kingmaker position after the election, will you—?
Oh, Paddy, you’re back on the kingmaker.
Well, no, it’s actually back on—
We’re going to turn your polls—
It’s actually back on how you would act in government on a major policy issue, so just hear me out. Will you—?
No, Paddy. No, Paddy. I’m not going to be prescripted by the media in the next 12 months. Let me tell you this – you’ve got the parties of the right; you’ve got a whole lot of cling-ons; you’ve got a whole lot of parties on the left clinging on to each other as well. My party sails alone—
Yes, as I said earlier, save the speech—
And that’s what the next battle’s going to be about.
I’m trying to ask you a question about immigration, not listen to your speech for tomorrow’s conference a day early. Now, will you—?
Well, you should do, Paddy, because you’d be very helpful to the people of New Zealand if you did.
Will you demand that immigration is seriously cut back or dropped as a condition of you going with any government, be it led by Labour or led by National?
I can’t believe I’m on a programme where an experienced, serious, respectable journalist like you asks me a question like that. You know what our policy is. It is to cut to the bone to people we need, not who need us.
And then that’d be—?
Get that very clearly out to the New Zealand people. We’re not compromising on that or for sales of our assets to offshore interests or massive offshore money buying up this country’s future, no. We’ve got a line in the sand as clear as daylight, and you’ve got a chance in the next election to sign up on the right side of this country’s future.
All right, thank you very much, Winston. We’re out of time.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Cheers.

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