Q+A: Little’s Position on the TPP Wrong: Mike Moore
Little’s Position on the TPP Wrong: Mike Moore
Former Labour leader and
ex-ambassador to the US, Mike Moore, says while he doesn’t
want to criticise current Labour leader Andrew Little, but
he disagrees with Mr Little’s opposition to the TPP
agreement. He spoke to Q+A’s Jessica Mutch at his
Auckland home on Friday, where he is still recovering from a
serious stroke 18 months ago.
He agreed the current
Labour opposition to the TPP was a political stance – one
he disagreed with.
“Look, a lot of the disagreement I
disagree with. I think it doesn’t go far enough. It
doesn’t go far enough. Our dairy farmers are getting very
little, nothing, so we can ask for more. So maybe we’re
opposed to it because it doesn’t go far enough.”
He
said globalisation and free trade were positives for New
Zealand.
“What we’ve done in the last 30 years has
been remarkable. We’ve produced more wealth in the last 40
years than the rest of civilisation put together. Look
what’s happening in China — 400 or 500 million people
out of extreme poverty. India the same. Europe the same.
And look at New Zealand. We’re going quite well, thank
you. What are we going to do? Knit our own aeroplanes? We
can’t do it, and we need to be involved in the global
supply chain, and I think we’ve managed quite well. Thank
God Labour was in in the ‘80s to fix this country so it
could stand
up.”
Q
+ A
Episode
34
MIKE
MOORE
Interviewed by JESSICA
MUTCH
GREG ‘Pity the old body
gave up,’ the words of Mike Moore as he regretfully gave
up his mission as New Zealand’s ambassador to the US at
the end of last year. 18 months ago the former Labour prime
minister and WTO director-general had a serious stroke, and
that led to the end of his time in Washington and a long
recovery back to health. But when Jessica Mutch interviewed
him at his Auckland home on Friday, Mike Moore was adamant
his long political career was far from over. He has at least
a few books still in him, he said. Jessica began her
interview by asking how he was
doing.
MIKE I’m
doing well. About a year ago I had a stroke in DC, and I can
just move that hand just slightly. Now we’re okay, except
I can’t move. I can’t walk as far as I used to between
meetings and things. So I’ve had one stroke, and two more
and you’re
out.
JESSICA How
are you getting your head around it? Is it a tough thing for
someone in your
position?
MIKE No.
I think I’ve done okay. I was going to retire anyway from
DC. It took six months off m. And I think I got what I
wanted to do in DC through in the main, so I was at peace
with that.
JESSICA Because
one of the things that you did do in DC, obviously a big
focus was the
TPP.
MIKE Mm.
JESSICA You
know that inside out. Is it dead in the water? Hillary
Clinton, Donald Trump have both publicly said they’re not
interested.
MIKE Yes.
Well, Hillary is strong for trade. She’s spoken for trade.
She likes trade. She understands. She’s not a fool. So it
may have to be dressed a little differently and rewritten
some of it, but I think in the main she understands how
wealth is created. And the rest of the world thinks the TPP
is a jack-up by the States, and the States thinks it’s a
jack-up against them. So that’s how it is.
JESSICA Do you
think it’ll just be TPP by another name? Do you think it
was a political decision for her and she needs something to
change so she can come out and support
it?
MIKE I would
think so. I would think so. But, you know, the world has
gone against trade in a number of
areas.
JESSICA Because,
interestingly, Andrew Little has come out and said that it
means the government loses its right to make laws and it
won’t be the economic benefits that’s promised and
there’ll be thousands of job losses. What’s your take on
that?
MIKE I
don’t want to say that I disagree with my leader, but
it’s not the
position.
JESSICA Do
you think that he is perhaps taking a political stance on
this as well? Perhaps similar to Hillary
Clinton’s?
MIKE Yes,
in a way like Hillary Clinton. They’ll want to tidy up one
or two things. Look, a lot of the disagreement I disagree
with. I think it doesn’t go far enough. It doesn’t go
far enough. Our dairy farmers are getting very little,
nothing, so we can ask for more. So maybe we’re opposed to
it because it doesn’t go far
enough.
JESSICA In
terms of globalisation, that’s another thing that you’ve
become a world leader on. You speak out on it often. Do you
think in New Zealand with things like our selling off our
forests and our water and our land, is that what you
intended with
globalisation?
MIKE Sovereign
governments can do what they like over the land, electricity
and that sort of thing or schools. That’s not to do with
globalisation. That’s by-products. Some do, some don’t.
I would not like to see a sell-off of some of our key
assets, but a government may intend to do
that.
JESSICA You
call it a by-product, though. Is it something that we’ve
perhaps lost control of, do you think, as a result of
globalisation?
MIKE No,
I don’t think we’ve lost control of it at all. I think
we’ve got arrogant. We’re too busy doing the job, not
busy explaining to people what comes of it, and therefore
the public resent
it.
JESSICA What do
you mean by
arrogant?
MIKE Well,
when you’re a minister and you’re working on these sort
of things, you work so hard, you travel so much, you’re
doing so much work that you sometimes leave the people
behind. And it happened to us. It happened to the Labour
Government. It maybe happened to this one in this one
area.
JESSICA Because
some people say that globalisation is failing a lot of
people. What do you say to
that?
MIKE It is
failing those people at the bottom, some of them, but wait a
minute. Hang on, what we’ve done in the last 30 years has
been remarkable. We’ve produced more wealth in the last 40
years than the rest of civilisation put together. Look
what’s happening in China — 400 or 500 million people
out of extreme poverty. India the same. Europe the same. And
look at New Zealand. We’re going quite well, thank you.
What are we going to do? Knit our own aeroplanes? We can’t
do it, and we need to be involved in the global supply
chain, and I think we’ve managed quite well. Thank God
Labour was in in the ‘80s to fix this country so it could
stand up.
JESSICA I
want to talk to you about the US election as well. How well
do you know Hillary Clinton, and do you think that the US is
in safe hands with
her?
MIKE I know
Hillary Clinton quite well. She understands New Zealand. She
went to the Rarotonga meeting. She is a friend of Murray
McCully. I think she’s prepped and she’s ready to go.
But our interests will not replace America’s interests,
and they never will, and they
shouldn’t.
JESSICA What’s
she like? Was there any moment where you met her when
something stuck with you or resonated with
her?
MIKE No,
she’s very professional, and she’s spot on in her
arguments. But she knew who she was talking
to.
JESSICA Yeah.
MIKE But
therefore, it’s good, though, that she’s done her
homework.
JESSICA Do
you think America is in safe hands with
her?
MIKE I think
so, yeah.
JESSICA Why do you
think people dislike her so much? Can you give us a bit of
context, having been in America for so
long?
MIKE I think
she’s been in it so long that she’s robotic and you can
predict what she’s going to say, and it’s always to the
point and well
briefed.
JESSICA And
do you think that’s what grates with the US people, they
see her as the
establishment?
MIKE She
is the
establishment.
JESSICA You
talk about her being robotic. Does she have charisma behind
closed
doors?
MIKE Oh yes,
she is a very bright person. She’s on top of the subject,
and what you’re saying, you’re criticising her because
she knows what’s going on. And as for Trump, well, God
help me.
JESSICA What do you think of Trump?
MIKE It’s not
printable.
JESSICA Give
us a little glimpse. Have you had much to do with
him?
MIKE No, I have
not. I have not sought it out.
JESSICA It’s
not realistic that he’s going to be the president, is
it?
MIKE I have too much faith in the
American people to think that they could vote for
him.
JESSICA But
why is his anti-immigration and
his—?
MIKE You have a look.
Anti-immigration is quite a popular position to take. It’s
taken in New Zealand by some and by American business. Some
in New Zealand do the same. It’s a position globally
that’s acceptable— well, not acceptable, but you can
understand why it’s happening. But I think it’s worth
30% of the vote, 40% of the vote. I shudder to think we’ll
have a world where these kind of primitives control
it.
JESSICA He’s
got something, though, doesn’t
he?
MIKE Yeah, he abuses
people.
JESSICA Do
you think that’s what it is?
MIKE Yes.
Well, it’s more than that. Those who are hurt and feel
they can do better, and he speaks to them. And so
America’s an interesting place. The poorest
constituencies, electorates, white ones, the Republicans
hold. The Republicans hold most of the states in America.
JESSICA You’ve
been exposed to all these leaders. You’ve been prime
minister yourself. You’ve seen up close the best prime
ministers in New Zealand. What advice do you have for Andrew
Little at the
moment?
MIKE Oh,
Andrew’s got to stick to his guns. He’s good, and he
ought to look at changing the party
rules.
JESSICA What
do you mean by
that?
MIKE Party
leadership should be controlled by the
caucus.
JESSICA And
why do you think that’s so
important?
MIKE Because you get 5000,
10,000 party members, and they’ll go in a bloc, but they
aren’t the caucus. If every member of the Labour Party
lived in my old electorate and voted for me, I would still
lose the
seat.
JESSICA Why
as a former prime minister is it important to have the
backing of the caucus?
MIKE Because you
need to lead people and take them down roads they’ve not
travelled before. It’s a very lonely job, and the roads we
haven’t travelled in the next few years are going to be
important to us. The jobs we’re going to have in the
future are not like the jobs we have now. And you’ve got
to talk your people through it. If you can’t do that by
working the base and working it out, you’ll become a
conservative
party.
JESSICA You
talked about Andrew Little before as ‘my leader’. Has he
sought advice from you?
MIKE Before he
became leader and we’ve talked on the phone, I think, yes.
And I have no problem with Andrew. I wish him
well.
JESSICA Is he
resonating, though?
MIKE I don’t
know.
JESSICA Our
latest polls say he’s not. He’s 26% at the moment for
the Labour
Party.
MIKE It’s
very seldom you get a leader of the Opposition who wins. I
won for three years, except for one month, I won those
polls, John Key won them. But we’re the last of only two.
You can’t expect— And Norman Kirk didn’t win the
polls, but once he was in, bang.
JESSICA He has to
do a bit better than 26%, do you think? How does he get out
there and resonate with the public? Is it the message? Is it
the person delivering the message?
MIKE I
think he needs to think carefully about what he believes in
and go for
it.
JESSICA What do
you mean by that?
MIKE Well, what do you
believe? We’re driven too much by opinion polls. You’ve
raised this. Just do what’s right, and the opinion polls
will come the other way. And opinion polls should be a
mechanism to judge policy to see how it floats, but it
shouldn’t decide policy. You can’t do it. When your
banking system’s collapsing, are you going to run an
opinion poll? Well, after the decision to see whether
it’ll float or not, but not
really.
JESSICA Do
you still feel any bitterness or resent for how you were
treated in Labour? Labour’s hard to its
leaders.
MIKE I do feel a little
resentful. I got the biggest swing to Labour except for
1935. I think it was 29 seats. To walk into the room and to
be attacked for that, I think they should have at least
stopped and said thank you. But, anyway, that’s politics.
It’s tough, and that’s the way it
is.
JESSICA In
hindsight, though, do you feel like you would’ve done
anything differently at that
time?
MIKE Well, I’d have done a lot
differently.
JESSICA Can
you think of anything?
MIKE We had no
money. We didn’t do opinion polls in the last month of the
election
campaign.
JESSICA Really?
MIKE Don’t
tell anyone that. We’ll seem like amateur hour. But
that’s how we operated, and a lot of work inside the
Parliament. There’s never been a National Party defeated
in three years. It’s a hell of a job. And a lot of the
members of Parliament were just tired. They couldn’t get
up in the morning, couldn’t do the hard work any
more.
JESSICA How
annoying was that, though, as prime
minister?
MIKE Well, it was annoying, and
I went over the top of them and they came right.
JESSICA But did
you feel like getting out a cattle prod with some of
them?
MIKE Well, actually, I think I
might have. Yeah, there were those who were just too
tired.
JESSICA What
about for you going into the future? What are you thinking
short-term at the moment?
MIKE I’ll get
myself walking again. I’ve got some writing to do. I’ve
still got a couple of books in me. Maybe this one will be
read.
JESSICA Because
you’re still in hot demand. That’s the
thing.
MIKE Well, that’s nice to say.
But I’m in hot demand because I’m not saying anything. I
believe in the Labour Party. I believe in the principles of
the party, the leadership, and I wish them
well.