Q+A: Jackson, Allan and Henare
Q+A: Willie Jackson, Kiri Allan and Peeni Henare interviewed by Corin Dann
The Labour
Party’s Māori members prepare for an election
battle
“The real focus for our team is, come
September 23, we need that party vote up, up, up - it needs
to be at least around 35 for us to form a strong Government
and that’s what we are really targeting,” says Labour
list candidate and newcomer Kiri Allan.
Speaking to Corin
Dann on TVNZ’s Q+A programme Ms Allan said “for each and
every one of us sitting on this panel and every single one
of us on that Labour list we’re there because we can see
that there’s a gap that exists between the haves and the
have nots and we don’t think that’s ok.”
When asked about whether the Labour Party had learnt its lesson from the Foreshore and Seabed debacle Tāmaki Makaurau MP Peeni Henare had this to say “I'm going to tell you now. I think they have, but it's important that we still have the voices, like myself and others, in there just to constantly remind them, because it's only 10 years ago that happened.” Also when asked if there was any truth to the speculation that he was asked to step aside from his seat Mr Henare said “that's a, 'we considered everything and here we are now.”
This week former Alliance MP Willie
Jackson was announced as the Labour Party’s Māori
campaign director with a list ranking of 21. When he was
questioned about his loyalty to Labour he responded by
saying he was born Labour, his father was a watersider and
he was a union official.
And on the issue of Charter
Schools or Partnership Schools Mr Jackson suggested that his
party would get rid of the name and get rid of the concept.
“But the principle of turning kids' lives around is
something that Chris Hipkins believes in and all of Labour
believes in. So call the school whatever you like,” said
Mr Jackson.
END
Please find attached the full
transcript of the interview and here is the link on our webpage.
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Q +
A
Episode
8
Kiri Allan; Willie
Jackon; Peeni Henare
Interviewed by
Corin Dann
CORIN Welcome back
to Q+A. Labour finalised its party list this week with a
bunch of fresh faces, now with a chance - a real chance –
of getting back into parliament this election, depending, of
course, on Labour’s final result. At number 21, a new face
for Labour, but not, of course, an unfamiliar face –
Willie Jackson, who once served as an Alliance MP; he’s
also Labour’s new Maori campaign director. At 20 on the
list is Kiri Allan, a lawyer and business consultant from
Whakatane. And then Peeni Henare, who’s not on the list
but is in the MP for Tamaki Makaurau. Morena to you
all.
KIRI Morena.
WILLIE Morena.
PEENI Morena.
CORIN Thank
you all very much for coming on the programme. I wonder,
Willie Jackson, if we’d just start with your reaction on
Winston Peters. Is that someone you could work with in a
cabinet one day, given his stance on immigration, and those
sorts of issues? Are you comfortable with
that?
WILLIE
Absolutely no problem whatsoever. Some of us have
good relationships with Winston, and , I know, the party
leader has spoken with him, and he’s someone who’s
respected by the
public.
CORIN What
about the criticisms that his views are
xenophobic?
WILLIE Yeah,
but that’s been the Winston criticism forever and a
day.
CORIN So
you just park them, do
you?
WILLIE Well,
no. The reality is what’s been happening around the world.
You’ve seen it in England; you’ve seen what’s happened
in America. People are sick of, I suppose, political
correctness. Winston epitomises a lot of what the average
man and woman is talking about, and he’s got a lot of
Labour values and principles, so I don’t think there’ll
be any problem whatsoever working with
him.
CORIN Kiri
Allan, you’re new. You’re coming through. You would’ve
watched Winston for many years. What do you think? Are you
comfortable with
him?
KIRI Well,
Winston’s your most eloquent, poetic sort of speaker in
the House. But, I think, for me, one thing that is I guess
on my mind and on the mind of many of our generation is that
we don’t want to talk too much on this cusp around, you
know, fearful language around people that live here. And I
think that some of the lines that Winston was taking, you
know, they concern me a little bit, around his references to
women in Saudi Arabia. In terms of working in a good
government come September 24, I think the leadership of our
party would be really insistent on making sure that it’s
going to be a strong governance team that leads us forward,
and if Winston’s in the House, and he’s performed well,
and on the 23rd, no doubt he’ll be a part of that
mix.
CORIN Peeni
Henare, I wonder how you feel about the events over the last
week with Willie Jackson coming on the list. I think you
were quoted saying you were a bit sideswiped by the fact
that he’s now the campaign director for the Maori
candidates. Are you actually comfortable with him being in
the Labour
party?
PEENI I’m
more than comfortable with my matua, Willie, here. Look, I
was taken out of context in that interview. We’ve known
that Willie’s had this role for a wee while now. In fact,
we had a hui on Waatea Marae to discuss it. The announcement
on the morning of the list was what was a bit of the
surprise, because I had already thought that that was a
given, given we had already met on Waatea Marae and already
discussed our strategy for this year’s election. So, look,
I’m very relaxed
about–
CORIN This
is a guy you could’ve been facing from– You were lined
up for the Maori party, Willie Jackson, against
Peeni.
WILLIE I
was talking with the Maori Party. I was talking with Gareth
Morgan too. But I think, Peeni, you know, we’re very
close, and we resent sometimes the media trying to make out
that there’s no support. Peeni and the Maori MPs voted for
me and our Maori Council probably four weeks ago to take
over this position. There’s no
difficulty.
CORIN But
isn’t the question about whether you’re, in fact, really
Labour? That, in fact– Why are you
joining the Labour Party? What’s the
point?
WILLIE I
was born Labour. My father was a watersider. I was a union
official–
PEENI If
you have a look across this panel here, my great grandfather
was a National MP. My grandfather ran for National. I
delivered pamphlets for NZ First. And now I’m a Labour
MP.
CORIN
So this is an interesting point. Cos I wonder— So what
comes first — is it the— Is it representing Maori and
promoting Maori rights first? Or is it in the Labour
party?
KIRI It's our people, you know.
Right now, it's actually— All three of us are here because
we are passionate about the situation that our families are
in our communities, and right now what we're seeing is that
we have this massive gap between people within our
communities, and so many of our families are really, really
struggling. And the thing is, this happens every election
year, and of course, it should, you know. The banter starts,
but really, for each and every single one of us sitting on
this panel and every single one of us on that Labour list,
we're there because we can see that there's a gap that
exists between the haves and the have-nots, and we don't
think that that's okay. 300,000 kids living in
poverty.
CORIN But there are tensions, aren't there? Because, Willie, you've been a strong advocate of charter schools. You've been involved with some. You've talked about how they are good for Maori children, yet you're in a Labour party which will abolish them.
WILLIE I've already talked with
the leadership about that. I'm into any sort of school that
will change what's happening with our kids. You can call it
schools, whatever you like, and
Labour—
CORIN Chris Hipkins will
get—
WILLIE Well, Chris and I have talked about this, and he understands where we're coming from. Our school has qualified teachers—
CORIN But can you change his mind?
WILLIE No, no, Chris is of the same mind as me. We want schools that will turn our lives around.
CORIN So you're saying Hipkins is okay with a partnership school?
WILLIE No, no, you call it whatever you like, Corin, but if you will bring in a school that will change kids' lives, that can— You know, we're dealing with families who half the kids have parents are prisoners, for goodness' sake. We're not in for a profit. We've got qualified teachers.
CORIN I'm not questioning the results at the school. I'm just saying I'm curious as to Labour policy, because Labour policy is to not have partnership schools.
WILLIE No, no, but Labour—
CORIN How would your school fit under that if you get rid of them?
WILLIE
No, no, they'll get rid of the name, and they'll
get rid of the concept, but the principle of turning kids'
lives around is something that Chris Hipkins believes in and
all of Labour believes in. So call the school whatever you
like.
KIRI And what you've got right
now is a government that's slashing its funding in
education, right? So you've got principals that are having
to make decisions about whether to fund books in schools, in
libraries, or choose between support staff. So, really,
again, if you're boiling it down, it's really— Right now,
the priorities of this government in its education portfolio
— and we would say across pretty much all of its social
services portfolios — the matrix isn't working right now,
so whether— whatever you call them, we know our kids
aren't thriving in these schools, and that's again— I
mean, that's why you're seeing—
CORIN But if a charter school or partnership school works, why wouldn't you do it?
KIRI Well, what I understand is that Chris Hipkins and our team, we're focusing on what does work. Call it what you will. I don't think that that's the issue, but what we are looking at — what are the results for our kids? And right now our kids aren't thriving.
CORIN Peeni Henare, I wonder as an MP in caucus, looking at— Helen Clark was talking about the foreshore and seabed in an interview recently. You know, Labour's looking like it will have a very strong Maori caucus if you do well at the election. What is the feeling amongst Labour's Maori MPs about that issue a few years on? Because I'm wondering whether Maori might not trust Labour given the decision they made with that foreshore and seabed — to take away a legal right?
PEENI Look, I— We discussed this earlier. I marched at the same time as all of our whanau did against the decision by that government, and when I was on the campaign trail in 2014, it was still very raw, the emotion amongst our people, and my colleagues and I in the Maori caucus in the wider Labour caucus still remind the party of exactly what—
CORIN Do you think they've learnt their lesson? Do you think they have changed?
PEENI Only time will tell. I'm going to tell you now. I think they have, but it's important that we still have the voices, like myself and others, in there just to constantly remind them, because it's only 10 years ago that happened.
CORIN Kiri Allan, what was your thoughts on that issue as someone young coming through?
KIRI Yeah, look, I think that it was a really incredibly tough time in our party. Our party is 100 years old ay. And we've done a lot of things right for our whanau Maori—
CORIN But
that wasn't one of them?
KIRI ...and for
our communities. And I think we've made some some egregious
errors as well. And what I do look at— I look at Jacinda
Ardern, I look at Andrew Little; both of whom have made
public statements that they think that we as a party handled
the seabed and foreshore wrong. And then I look at the likes
of the Willies, and I look at the likes of Peenis and
Willow-Jeans and others coming into our party right now, and
I go, 'These guys are— have been ardent advocates for our
people on the ground for many years — long before they put
on their political caps and potae, 'Do I think that we as a
strong cohort within Labour, committed to making sure that
we don't make those egregious errors again?' And, yes, I'm
confident in our team.
CORIN Willie Jackson, what do you want? Do you want to be the Minister of Maori Affairs in the next Labour-led government?
WILLIE I think— Look, I wanted to be the prime minister. I told Andrew Little that at the start, so that's the full— that's the real.
CORIN So that's on the table?
WILLIE Look, I want to advance things for our people. That's why I came into this. John Tamihere and I work in the community.
CORIN You're not in there to be in opposition, though, are you?
WILLIE No, absolutely not. But John Tamihere and I, we work for our community and for our people. We think that what we get— we get—
CORIN But to—
WILLIE Hang on, hang on, we get peanuts. We don't get enough dollars, resources back to our communities. That's our problem. Nothing personal with the Maori party. They try as much as they can. But you ask Merepeka Raukawa-Tait what Whanau Ora is—
CORIN Do you need to be a minister to do that?
WILLIE
Well— Well, we can get to that. That's not the
point. It's about resourcing. It's about funding. It's about
respecting our people, and that's not happening at the
moment, and a Labour government wants to change
that.
CORIN Well,
I just wondered how comfortable the likes of Peeni are about
you coming in and effectively lining up potentially
ministerial jobs when there's a whole bunch of Maori MPs
already in parliament who might feel you're jumping the
queue a bit
here.
WILLIE
Well, they're already— No, hang on. They're
tremendous young people. Listen to
Kiri.
CORIN
They've been doing the hard yards in
parliament.
WILLIE
Absolutely, and I'll support them, and I— We've
got a battle in those Maori seats and Peeni's gonna come
through. Kiri over here is our young star. We're not talking
about portfolios now. We're talking about resources and
we're talking about getting to our people who are missing
out at the cold face, particularly in the urban
areas.
KIRI And Corin, those discussions
really are a conversation for another day because right now,
we're not in government. We're in Opposition, and the likes
of my friend here, Peeni, and all of the other very
competent members of our caucus are sitting there trying to
nail the government on all the egregious kind of things that
are happening out in our grassroots communities. But it
doesn't matter who wears what after the election. Right now
we're not in. And so I think that the real focus for our
team is come September 23, we need that party vote up, up,
up. It needs to be at least around 35 for us to form a
strong government and that's what we're really
targeting.
CORIN
Peeni, do you need Willie's
help?
PEENI
Oh, look, we always need Willie's help, and it
isn't just Willie. It's John Tamihere. It's all the people
in our Maori communities. It's an important part of the
puzzle. We can't just be politicians without the support of
our
community.
CORIN
Was there any truth to the speculation that you
were effectively asked if you would step aside from your
seat?
PEENI Look,
I said this in another interview. When Kawiti fought every
battle in the Far North, he had a different strategy each
time. I think it's important that whenever we come into a
new election we consider all options, and now you've got
fantastic options and our voters do,
too.
CORIN
And— Is that a yes? You were
asked?
PEENI
That's a, 'We considered everything and here we
are
now.'
CORIN
All right. I'll let people make their own mind up
about that. What is the-? There was some criticism after the
list announcement, Willie, of yourself — that you kind of
ran roughshod over the process and took away the spotlight
from some young talent like Kiri coming through. Are you
disappointed with how that was handled or how that
went?
WILLIE
I'm disappointed not with you but with some of
your mates who kept running those lines. As you've heard
today, I'm the Maori Campaign Director. I had to look at the
implications of that list announcement. We didn't have any
Maori in the top 15. There's a history to look at. There's a
whakapapa to honour. We have to honour Peeni and the other
Maori MPs who came off the list for new people. And so there
was a
lot—
CORIN
But could you not see that it would cause
damage?
WILLIE
No, no, no. I'm not interested in your deadlines
about— You know, the election's five months
away.
CORIN
But the Labour Party gave us the deadline. They
told
us.
WILLIE
But I'm not the Labour Party PR officer. I'm the
Maori Campaign Director. I've got to look at the
implications of a list where we've got new people coming
through, and we've got to talk— I had to talk that through
with the leadership. I haven't said a negative thing about
the list. I think it's a great list — diversity, fabulous
Maori women, Asians — you know, it's a terrific list. But
I had a responsibility and an obligation to talk about the
consequences and the implications of that list that was
going out
there.
CORIN
All right, guys. I think we need to leave it
there, but thank you very much for your time. We really
appreciate it on
Q+A.