On Newshub Nation: Lisa Owen interviews Employment Minister Willie Jackson

Lisa Owen: The government set aside $15 million dollars over four years for a plan to get more young people into work. There are currently 70,000 young people not in employment, education or training, referred to as NEETs. And while overall unemployment figures are coming down, Maori unemployment rates are still twice that of the general population. Employment Minister Willie Jackson joins me now. Good morning, Minister.
Willie Jackson: Good morning. Kia ora. Kia ora, Lisa.
So, unemployment – currently 4.5 per cent or thereabouts. Is the government still aiming to get down to 4 per cent in this first term?
Oh, absolutely. That’s always been the goal, and we’re on track. When I came in, into the portfolio, I inherited 4.9 per cent, so I think we’re doing well.
What’s driving the drop, do you reckon?
We’re investing in areas that the previous government forgot all about. You know? So when I came in, the employment figures were 4.9 per cent, but the reality was that—
They were on a downward trend, though.
They were on a downward trend, but there’s statistics, and then there’s statistics. The reality is you know and I know that the stats for Maori, the stats for Pacific Islanders, the stats for women, were terrible, basically. But we’ve put some real investment in those areas. I’m really pleased with some of the results we’re getting. I’ve rolled out He Poutama Rangatahi, which we’ve talked about. And so we’ve seen some turnarounds in terms of youth, in terms of NEETs. We’ve taken that from 80,000 down to 72,000, and Maori unemployment has come down, and Maori employment has gone up. So in terms of the women’s area, things have gone up. So, I mean, I think we’re tracking in the right direction.
Okay, well, let’s look at it in a bit more detail. Maori unemployment - 9.4 per cent. What are you aiming to reduce that to in this term?
The reality is we are working hard. We haven’t come up with a final figure yet.
Why no target?
Well, it would be great if we could get it down to 5 per cent, 6 per cent, you know? If we could pull it right down. It would be great if we could get it where the general figure is. But that’s going to require targeted funding and targeted resourcing. And we’ve done pretty well so far. I mean, we’ve only been in eight or nine months.
Okay, we will talk more about in a second. But that 5 per cent or 6 per cent, is that a target?
Well, we talk about it, but we know what the general population is, right?
Yeah.
So we are talking 4.5 per cent right now. If we could get close to that, that would be great. But it’s going to require a heck of a lot of work. But we’ve brought it down. It was nearly triple when I took over.
Why don’t you set a target, though? Because people will sit there … You’ve set a target for the general population of 4 per cent. Don’t you have the same aspirations for Maori?
Absolutely.
Why not write them down, make it a target?
Absolutely, but, look, the reality, Lisa, is that the resourcing and funding for Maori, over the previous nine years, has been minimal. So we’ve had governments who have given scraps to Maori. And so what we are doing and what I’m doing in terms of Maori caucus - and as you know I co-chair that caucus - we are working on our funding in our resourcing strategy right now. And so we went down a universal strategy in the last budget. But if we can get a more targeted budgeting strategy, then we can work towards the percentages that you are talking about today. But we didn’t have a strong targeted funding strategy in the last budget.
Right. Okay. Your own Prime Minister has said that everything in coalition is a negotiation, right?
Absolutely.
So you are making noises there about more targeted funding.
Yup.
How easy is that going to be to get partial coalition partners? You are saying targeted to Maori.
The reality is that we didn’t have a strong targeted funding strategy.
But, Minister, to be clear, you are talking about targeting specifically for Maori unemployment.
That’s right. That’s right.
Okay, so how hard is that going to be to get past the coalition partners?
I don’t think it’s going to be too hard.The Greens have been very supportive, and we have wonderful debates with Winston and Shane Jones, of course. And, look, Winston Peters is very aware of that. He comes from the North. He understood the strategy in terms of the first budget. The second budget, as Minister Robertson knows, is going to have to target certain groups who may have missed out the first time. So some of our groups did not get funding supported in the different areas, however, in the universal area, there was a lot of Maori who benefited from the payments, from the winter payments, from the family benefit payments, so we were really pleased with what Maori got in a general sense. However, to get to some of those hard groups, we are going to require continual targeted funding like we’ve had from He Poutama Rangatahi in the last nine months.
So while previously you may have emphasised universality, you now recognise that that is not going to solve all your problems.
I’ve always recognised universality and targeted funding. You need both strategies. The Labour Party recognises both too. Minister Robertson recognises both too. The emphasis the first time was on universality, because too many Maori were sleeping in cars; too many Maori were dying because of a poor health system, so we had to try and get them the budgets and the funding and the resourcing to the bigger crowd, I suppose. We couldn’t just go to our providers.
But next time round you’re suggesting you’re going for more targeted – that’s your aim. So where do you want to see the money go specifically? What projects are you looking for more money for, targeted?
For next time, obviously we’ll be looking in the Maori health area; it’s a huge area. Maori employment, as we’ve talked about today, is really, really important. Whanau Ora is really, really important.
So important that funding’s on hold at the moment.
Well, I mean, it was a very responsible budget that was rolled out by the Minister of Finance last time, and he had to go through the different areas. Where was the need? The need was in South Auckland, West Auckland, where we had people sleeping in cars. And so enough funding has gone out there so that we can have families looked after, and it’s been a reasonable winter for families who have been beneficiaries of the Families Package and the Winter Payment and payments like that.
All right. You’re talking big picture; let’s talk specifics. So, overall, unemployment is tracking downward, right? 4.8 per cent at this time last year, now down to 4.5 per cent. But the gap – the gap between Maori and non-Maori is persistent.
Sure.
Specifically, what is your plan to close that gap?
To have more funding and resources.
How much?
Well, when you talk about how much—
And where?
Well, we need more resourcing. And, look, I’ll just give you an example. In the last nine months we’ve poured just over $13 million, $14 million into the regions, into youth in terms of He Poutama Rangatahi. What have we got from that? We’ve got some real results. We need some more investment in the regions. In the north, you’ve got almost third-world conditions. When we go into the communities, they embrace us. I’ve enjoyed the last nine months, in terms of seeing people smiling and happy that we’ve gone in. Because, the way I see it, Poutama Rangatahi has been crucial in turning people’s lives around. So you’re asking how much – we’ve just put 14 million into the regions.
That’s what you’ve done. We’re talking about what’s coming next. So have you got a specific programme in mind with a specific number that you need for it?
Yes, it’s called He Poutama Rangatahi. And that work’s got to continue, in terms of the youth and in terms of Maori and in terms of, also, young Pakeha too. I’m not just the Minister for Maori. I’m the Minister for all peoples.
How much more money do you need for that, though?
I don’t want to, really, because I’ve got to talk with the Minister of Finance over the next week.
Give me a ballpark. Give me a ballpark, Minister.
No, no, because the Minister of Finance knows that more funding and resourcing has to go into the regions.
Tens of millions? Tens of millions in a project.
Obviously there’s millions of dollars that need to go back into the regions to support young people.
No, but that programme, sorry to interrupt, but that programme specifically, I know you don’t want to name an actual number. But, what, more than the $30 million that Winston Peters is going to get for his racing track?
You need to do some research on what was budgeted for that programme in previous years. But $13 million has gone out over the last nine months. I’ve got people queuing at my door in the regions for more funding and more resourcing and I’m going to have that conversation with the Minister of Finance in the next week, and he’s—
So the budgeted money is $15 million over four years.
He’s happy. He’s happy with the results that are coming back, and we’ll talk further. But I’m not going to talk the figures on here, in terms of, you know, us going forward. Because he’s a responsible budgeter.
All right, let’s move on then. In the latest ANZ Business Outlook Survey, businesses across sectors said that they’re less likely to hire new people, and, in particular, fewer jobs are expected in agriculture and construction. So how are you going to counter that? Where are the jobs going to come from?
We’re going to work with agriculture, and we’re working with construction right now. I mean, we’re working with them in terms of the seasons and what’s happening. We had labour shortages in agriculture, in those areas and in the building sector. So we’re hoping through our different strategies, like Mana in Mahi and our skills programmes, to generate work, to generate those jobs. And, you know, we’re optimistic. There’s a group of ministers who work right across the spectrum in terms of employment. We’re putting in plans and strategies for all those different areas.
But one of the big concerns that ANZ’s chief economist said for these businesses is meeting growing wage costs. Obviously, you’ve put up the minimum wage — the $16.50 — and you’ve got plans to raise it to $20 by 2021. So how many jobs do you think that that’s going to cost you?
Well, we always get that response. We always get that response — how many jobs—
It’s a legitimate question though, isn’t it?
The reality is we’re going to invest in our young people, and we’re going to invest— Mana in Mahi, we think is going to generate 4000 jobs, for instance, over the next few—
You’ve got 70,000 NEETs.
Yeah, but you’ve got to make a start somewhere. We’ve got a number of strategies across the spectrum. Now, Mana in Mahi will be fantastic, we think. We’re going to start in the building industry, and it’s going to roll right across the spectrum in terms of—
So, back to the original question, raising the minimum wage is a concern for businesses meeting their costs, so how many jobs do you think it’s going to cost to put it up to that 20 bucks an hour by 2021?
See, every time we raise the minimum wage, every time — it happened with the previous Labour government — we had this talk about how many jobs is that going to cost. You know, there’s always dire predictions that hundreds and thousands of jobs are going to be lost. And what happens at the end of it? Business goes on. You know, you can have all the reports run from—
Well, the ministry advice, which you’re probably aware of, said 30,000 jobs won’t be created as a result of bumping the wage up to $20.20 was the figure they used—
That’s the living wage you’re talking about.
Yeah. I suppose the question is – is the policy counter-productive to legislate a rise in wages so significant? I mean, how can you have a more productive economy where people earn better wages and still keep employment at your goal of 4 per cent?
Well, the reality is we have to have an economy that works for everyone. That’s what we have to do. We can’t just have a group of people who do well off the economy. We’ve had thousands of New Zealanders who have missed out through this economy over the previous nine years. What we’re trying to do is rebalance things; we’re trying to rebalance things. So you’ve heard the Minister of Finance, the Minister of Transport. We’re going to invest in infrastructure. We’re going to invest in housing. There’s regional investment. So we’ve got investment everywhere. And through that, what’s going to come off that is more employment, more support. There’s obviously going to be some flow-on effects from all the investments that we’re making, and there’s going to be more and more jobs. So you’re asking how we’re going to go forward. We’re going to go forward by investing in these major projects and working with employers all the time. And we’re looking at business. We bring big business into the Parliament, and we’re working with them closely, so we’re a government who want to invest in opportunity. You’ve heard all the talk. So all this dire talk about us not getting to 4 per cent, I don’t— I think we’ll get very close to it with the type of investment that is being made at the moment and, of course, the investment that we’re making in terms of the regions, which I’m really looking forward to.
Does quality of job matter? Because if you’re looking at productivity, 1017 people are considered to be under-employed, meaning that they’re working less than 30 hours a week and they want to work more. So is quality of work important or is it just getting them off your statistics and getting them into employment?
This is not a National Party government. This is a government that cares about workers’ dignity. This is a government— a passionate government, a caring government, as our Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has said all the time. So it’s not just about throwing them the broom and saying, ‘There’s your job’. We want jobs with dignity. We want people to know that they’ve got certainty of contract. We’re trying to rebalance the workplace. Iain Lees-Galloway is doing some terrific work in that area. We’re trying to get some equity in there. Now, that doesn’t mean to say that we want to stamp all over employers. We want to work with employers. But we want them to work closely with us. We want them to provide opportunities. We want them to listen to workers. We want workers to have a voice too. So it’s about getting the balance right, and it’s just going to take a little while.
We’ve got a bit to get through, so a couple of things I’d like a few quick answers. Mana in Mahi — how much do you think that programme’s going to cost overall?
Well, it’s going to cost $13 million in terms of the pastoral care — that was what we talked about. You guys ran a stupid story—
$13 million in pastoral care. Okay, so—
In pastoral care, but we’re $15 to $16 million overall. But it’s a zero budget transfer, because basically they were—
Money coming from the dole payments—
That’s right, but you guys made a big fuss about it and got the whole story wrong.
I don’t think you found that on Newshub Nation. The Mana in Mahi pilot at the moment — 150 people. You want to get up to 4000 by next year. Seriously, how are you going to ramp it up that quickly?
Well, we have a big PR campaign that’s happening right now. It’s going to happen very shortly. We want to bring small- to medium-term employers on. We want—
How confident are you that you can meet that target by the end of 2019?
We’re going to give it a great shot, the Prime Minister’s said.
Would you stake your job on it?
Well, we don’t want to get carried away, Lisa, right? But we’ll give it a good shot. And we’ve had great reaction, great response. Even the National Party, I think, are supporting us on this.
We’ve had four emergency labour shortages in the past 10 months. That’s for seasonal work. How many workers short are we going to be this spring/summer?
Willie Jackson: Well, hopefully, not as many as we had last summer.
Do you have a number, though?
Well, no, because you’ll have to ask them, but what we do want to do is work with those employers. We don’t want seasonal workers to be treated like nobodies. We don’t want- here, we had the labour shortages in the Hawke’s Bay and East Coast, right? And we had an industry crying out for workers in those areas to come and pick the fruit off their trees, and the workers were sitting right on their doorsteps. Those workers have to be treated with respect. They have to be looked after. They have to be given transport allowances. You know, the key to solving the seasonal problems and the seasonal crisis is not by opening up the visa and by bringing in more and more immigrants.
So don’t bring in any more, you’re saying?
No, I’m not saying that-
11,100 on those visas – no, just very quickly – 11,100 capped on those RSE visas. The growers reckon they could do with 13,100, so, but what? Don’t put it up?
No, we’ll work with the growers in terms of developing a work strategy where we can bring local people in, look after New Zealanders, and, obviously, if we have to fill a hole, we’ll bring immigrants in. But we’re about supporting New Zealanders and New Zealand workers who have been shut out, and you just can’t have a crisis when you’ve got workers sitting on your doorstep down there.
All right. Let’s move on. It’s been a tough fortnight for the labour caucus. Meka Whaitiri – is she still the co-chair of the Labour Maori caucus?
Yes.
Is that appropriate?
Yes.
Why?
Well, in this country–
She stood down – serious allegations here.
In this country, we go through certain processes, and she’s got to go through a process, so she’s still a Member of Parliament.
But she’s been stood down from her portfolios, so is there a different standard for the Maori caucus?
No. Not at all. What we believe in is justice, and I won’t be commenting on the process, but she is still the MP for Ikaroa-Rawhiti, she is still the co-chair, along with myself, for the Maori caucus, and I think all New Zealanders would think that there’s got to be an investigation and a process to go through before we try and shut Meka Whaitiri down, who’s made a great contribution, not just to the Maori caucus over the years, but to the Labour Party.
So how is morale in the Labour caucus?
Fantastic.
What? With two cabinet ministers side-lined in two weeks? Really? Is morale fantastic?
Well, look, as the Prime Minister said, that’s government. That’s politics. These things happen, but what you and Duncan Garner might perceive as a big crisis and catastrophe happening is not the reality out on the streets. I’ve been in the regions for the last couple of weeks with people like Shane Jones. People have been embracing us. They can see that we’ve got a plan. They like what the–
Meka Whaitiri wasn’t stood down at that point.
No, hang on – but things happen. That’s politics, and we’ll work through that, but our people on the streets – I live in South Auckland, and –
Should things like this happen, though? Should thing like this happen, Minister, where you get two ministers stood down within two weeks – one for a serious misstep, and another for an extremely serious allegation?
Well, allegations are allegations, and you’ve still got to go through that process. Both those ministers are big contributors to the Labour Party, and we should just let the process run its course and not try and say that the Labour Party’s falling apart, because the Labour Party’s never been stronger, and there’s some inspirational leadership that’s coming from, not just our leader, but from our senior ministers like Twyford, Robertson, Parker, you know?
Well, we’re talking about Meka Whaitiri here. So if Meka Whaitiri – if the allegations against her are proven, should she go from Parliament all together?
I’m not prepared to talk about that.
You won’t tell us what your standards are?
Well, our standards–
No, you personally. Do you think, if the allegations against her are proven, that she should go from Parliament all together?
No, I don’t think it’s right to speculate about Meka at this time. She needs to be given some respect that there’s an investigation in place, so it’s inappropriate for me to comment.
All right. Let me put it another way – as Minister of Employment, in your view, is there ever any excuse for bullying or physical violence in the workplace?
Well, of course not. Of course not, and I have a high standard there, as does Meka Whaitiri. But you shouldn’t try and insinuate that she’s guilty already.
I’m not; I’m just asking you the basic question.
Yes, but the way you’re asking it, Lisa, is that she’s gone. You know, just because the allegation has been made doesn’t mean it’s true. There’s still a process to go through.
Thank you for joining me this morning. That is our Minister of Employment Willie Jackson.
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