Q+A: Susan Wood Interviews Barrie Cassidy
Sunday 30 June, 2013
Q+A: Susan Wood
Interviews Barrie Cassidy
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Q+A
SUSAN
WOOD INTERVIEWS BARRIE
CASSIDY
SUSAN
WOOD
One of his own Labor MPs called him a
‘psychopath with a giant ego’, but despite that, Kevin
Rudd has been reinstalled as Australian Prime Minister,
reclaiming the job he lost to Julia Gillard three years
ago. Since then, he’s been accused of continually
undermining her leadership and destabilising the government
there. But Ms Gillard herself was not without faults.
Earlier I spoke to Barrie Cassidy, host of the ABC’s
political show Insiders and asked him what it was that made
her so deeply unpopular.
BARRIE CASSIDY -
ABC ‘Insiders’
Julia Gillard wasn’t a
particularly good communicator. She wasn’t particularly
good at political strategy. She probably irritated rather
than inspired a lot of people, and it may be an indictment
on modern politics, but all of that mattered. She didn’t
have much support in the media. In fact, parts of the media
were hostile towards her. And so in the end, the polling was
dragged down to a point where Kevin Rudd was able to say
that they faced a catastrophic outcome. But I think the
other factor that can’t be ignored is that virtually for
the entire three years that she was prime minister, she
faced two Opposition leaders, not one. The formidable Tony
Abbott and, of course, Kevin Rudd, who was determined from
the moment that he lost the leadership to both seek revenge
and to return to what he felt was properly
his.
SUSAN
Just how damaging do you think that Rudd
undermining slowly, slowly over the years
was?
BARRIE The
Rudd conversation never left, and it started in the 2010
election campaign. Julia Gillard went into that campaign
with a lead of 55-45 in the two party preferred vote. And
then there were leaks. Some of accused Kevin Rudd directly
of that, but certainly his supporters, and those leaks
undermined her efforts. Kevin Rudd came back into the
conversation. That big lead evaporated overnight and she was
forced into minority government. And then ever since, there
are examples. You only need to look at the polls. Whenever
she looked like she was recovering in the polls, suddenly
Rudd became the topic of conversation again, and that
advantage disappeared. Look, there’s no doubt that it was
a corrosive element. Disunity is death in politics, and for
whatever reason, Rudd supporters ensured that that was
constantly the
case.
SUSAN
Rudd’s personality - much made of it and the less
pleasant side of it. One of his own MPs, Steve Gibbins, says
Rudd is a ‘psychopath with a giant ego’. What do you
make of that
description?
BARRIE
It was backed up by the views of others. Look, at
the time when Kevin Rudd was replaced in the leadership, not
a lot was said, and I think that was to the detriment,
because the country was left confused. Why did you just
overnight take the prime minister out? And then when he
challenged later on in the process, they went public, and
they really unloaded on him. But the fact is that at the
time when he was prime minister, he didn’t consult
properly. He either abused or ignored most of them. It
wasn’t a question, as he has since said, that he didn’t
praise them enough. It wasn’t praise that they wanted.
They just simply didn’t like the abuse. He ran a chaotic
office. He was just disorganised. One of the ministers who
refused to work with him this time around now that he’s
back said that he just couldn’t go through that process
again. He simply couldn’t yet again experience the idea of
going out and saying something one day and then being told
overnight that he’d have to change the rhetoric, if not
the policy.
SUSAN
Any of that likely to change? The leopard likely to
change his spots this time
around?
BARRIE
Well, he says he will, and he says he’s going to
consult, certainly consult more. But as he says that, he
apologises on the one hand, then makes excuses for it on the
other, he said... but then again, back in 2007 and beyond,
there was a little thing called the Global Financial Crisis.
The banks were going under. It needed urgent action. But
nevertheless, ‘I will consult more. I will make sure that
I bring all of the ministers in the party into the
process.’ So, look, he will surely have learnt and whether
just rhetorically at least he’ll make changes. He just
simply can’t afford to operate as he used
to.
SUSAN He
has personality issues, but Tony Abbott has a whole lot of
issues of his own, doesn’t
he?
BARRIE Look,
Tony Abbott is not popular with the electorate, and that’s
the situation that is now being broken, in a sense, and what
makes the next election now so much more intriguing, because
the polls indicated that the public didn’t like either
choice. They didn’t like the idea of voting for either
Julia Gillard or Tony Abbott. Now they have a choice. Tony
Abbott is an interesting character. He’s a very, very
effective Opposition leader. He prosecuted the case against
Kevin Rudd really well when Kevin Rudd was leader, and
he’s done a very good job on Julia Gillard. But in the
process, he’s seen as Mr Negative, Dr No. And now I think
he’s going to be forced back…in the last six months or
so, he was starting to turn that around, he was starting to
talk more positively about policy. Now he’s got a new
leader to deal with again, and he may be forced back into
that negativity that he wanted to
avoid.
SUSAN
So the polls, of course, are a big part of the
reason that Julia Gillard was taken out, if you like. One
snap poll already just in the past few days showing a big
jump for Labor. Are you expecting them to get closer, to
narrow?
BARRIE
Yeah, we have to be careful about those polls,
because when Kevin Rudd’s name is put into the process,
it’s hypothetical. Conservative voters might play around
with that and just be a bit mischievous. But they did
suggest that it’s 50/50 with Kevin Rudd in the leadership.
Let’s see what the reality is. But that also assumes a
seamless transition. It hasn’t been too bad, but at least
six senior ministers have walked. That’s not seamless,
and, apart from that, it assumes that the honeymoon period
will go all the way through to the election. Now, Kevin
Rudd’s a great campaigner. I don’t write it off, and I
don’t discount…in fact, it’s conceivable that he could
actually win the thing, which would be remarkable, given
where Labor is right at the moment. But at the very least,
he will save a lot more seats than was in prospect with
Julia Gillard in the
leadership.
SUSAN
What does it mean for NZ? We know that Kevin Rudd
prefers the bigger countries, the United States, China. So
what does it mean for us sitting
here?
BARRIE
You’re not as big as United States and China, so
you won’t get the attention. Look, that is true. There was
some criticism of Kevin Rudd when he was Foreign Minister
and the way that he handled or virtually ignored the
Pacific. He does have this tendency to think big. He thinks
UN, he thinks China, he thinks the United States, and
countries like NZ, even the smaller countries like Fiji and
Papua New Guinea, don’t get a look in. Julia Gillard, on
the other hand, I know that it went over well in NZ and the
way that she responded to some of your wretched luck with
some natural disasters. But she also won the hearts of
Australians, because I think she expressed what Australians
were feeling. She sort of got the Anzac spirit. I’m not
sure that Kevin Rudd is in that same
mindset.
SUSAN
What are you picking for the timing of the
election?
BARRIE
I don’t think it will be early. Look, if he gets
an immediate poll that shows a remarkable result, then maybe
he’d be tempted to go straightaway. But I think he’d be
comfortable with stretching it out to maybe October.
There’s a G20 meeting at St Petersburg in early September.
He’d love to be there. He’d love to be rubbing shoulders
with Barack Obama and Putin and Cameron and the rest of
them, and it would look good back home. That would require,
I think, Parliament sitting again, but I don’t think
he’d be too afraid of that. He’s got some policy changes
he wants to make. He wants to highlight some of those. So I
would be thinking sometime in
October.
ENDS