Q+A: Mark Mitchell interviewed by Jessica Mutch
Q+A: Mark Mitchell interviewed by Jessica Mutch
LINZ Minister: We are closely monitoring foreign land sales
Minister for Land
Information NZ, Mark Mitchell, says the process of foreign
owners buying New Zealand land is robust and investors have
to show how they can benefit our country.
“I don’t
accept that there’s a big buy-up of New Zealand land at
all,” the Minister said on Q+A this morning.
He said
there had been instances where authorities had taken action
against a foreign land owner who had failed to meet their
obligations under a sale agreement.
“I can’t give you
a ballpark figure. All I can say is that there have been
breaches and we have acted on them,” Mr Mitchell
said.
“I think that the percentage of land that goes
into foreign ownership and attracts foreign investment is
actually very small, in terms of you know the productive
land that we have in New Zealand.”
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Q +
A
Episode
172
MARK
MITCHELL
Interviewed by JESSICA
MUTCH
MARK Well the purpose of
the OIO office is to make sure that every application is
always in New Zealand’s best interests. And I think that
– so in relation to Hunter Valley, just a little bit of
context around that, Jessica, was that the same family has
been faithfully farming Hunter Valley for decades. They’re
older now; they want to retire. They’ve had the station on
our local market now for five years looking for a local or
Kiwi buyer. They haven’t had much luck. And, of course,
they’ve had very strong interest from an offshore buyer
that’s obviously got a real passion for the area. In terms
of the public access, actually, the public access wasn’t
that great. It is an operational farm, and of course, when
it’s an operational farm, you’ve got to be careful
around who’s moving across, especially with open access.
But under the OIO application, actually we have increased
public
access.
JESSICA But
in this specific case, though, they weren’t already
negotiating with the council to try and get access through
to that DOC conservation area and through to the lake of
this very iconic property. They now don’t, and those
locals there feel as though they’re missing out because of
this American
buyer.
MARK Those
are two separate issues is that people can actually apply to
the council to get access – or even through the
Commissioner for Crown Lands. But what the OIO has done is
they’ve made sure, through their process, which is quite
separate, that actually public access is preserved and is
actually being
strengthened.
JESSICA That’s
part of the act, of course, as you know – that you have to
think about that. But in this case, was due consideration
given? Because a lot of the locals feel as though this has
been done by stealth, and they’re missing out on going for
a walk in somewhere that they’ve walked in for
decades.
MARK No, I
can assure you that they’re not going to miss out on going
for a walk. In fact, the public access has been increased as
part of that OIO process. And, of course, the OIO office is
always focused -- their primary focus is making sure that
there are tangible benefits above and beyond what would have
otherwise been a local
sale.
JESSICA But
just not walking access, in this
case.
MARK No,
walking access has been increased
too.
JESSICA But
it’s a goat track, though; you have to be a very
experienced tramper or climber. We’ve been told that if
you’re just a regular walker like you or I, you would
struggle to get across
there.
MARK I’ve
been told that I could get across
there.
JESSICA Maybe
just me,
then.
MARK So no,
the access is very good. They’ve got access to the camp
there. They’ve got access to an additional hut that’s on
the station. There’s definitely been an increase in terms
of public access. And some of these walking groups actually
have got other options open to them to continue to look at
increasing that access, as
well.
JESSICA Bigger
picture, though – are you concerned that this is happening
more frequently? We’re having a big buy-up of New Zealand
land, and a lot of New Zealanders are really concerned about
it. Can you see their
point?
MARK No, I
don’t accept that there’s a big buy-up of New Zealand
land at all. I
think—
JESSICA There
were 466 hectares – we’ve got those numbers from the OIO
– and that was five times more than 2015, so 466 hectares
in 2015—in 2016,
rather.
MARK The
way that that’s captured is technical, but what I can
assure you of is that in terms of the net sales, they’re
pretty consistent over the last decade. And we’re very
conscious of that. We look very, very closely at that. And
the OIO process is extremely robust in terms
of--
JESSICA These
are figures, though, minister, in fairness, from the OIO and
show that it’s nearly five times more in 2016 than it was
in 2015.
MARK I
think, Jessica, it’s the way that number’s been
interpreted. Some of those OIO applications that go through
that involve land also involve
Kiwis.
JESSICA But
it’s foreigners having a finger in all these different
pies.
MARK The
actual — so the net land that’s actually gone into
foreign ownership is the same, and it’s been consistent
over the last
decade.
JESSICA New
Zealand First wants a register. Why won’t the government
do that?
MARK I’m
not going to talk about New Zealand First policy. I’ll
just
say--
JESSICA Why
won’t the government do a register,
then?
MARK So the
government, in terms of—certainly from my office in the
OIO, we are watching very, very carefully, and we have got a
very robust process that is focused solely on making sure
that any foreign investment—Actually, some foreign
investment into the country is really important because, as
Kiwis, we like to engage and invest in other parts of the
world as well, and we’re an open economy, we’re
recognised as being a very strong open economy, so good
investment is
good.
JESSICA Is it
robust, though, minister? Because we can’t quantify how
much of New Zealand land is actually foreign-owned. The OIO
looks at iconic and special land, but a piece of land
that’s owned by a Chinese buyer or a Russian buyer that
might be quite beautiful but doesn’t meet that iconic
status, that’s not captured in those
figures.
MARK I
think that Statistics New Zealand actually is developing
processes that allows us to capture a lot more of that
information.
JESSICA But
it’s not robust now, is it?
MARK It’s
getting better and better. And in terms of the OIO, we are
able to monitor and watch very carefully, in terms of the
applications that are coming through the
office.
JESSICA But
can New Zealanders find out exactly how much New Zealand
land is owned by a foreign
buyer?
MARK Well
I know certainly, through the OIO, you’ve just
quoted some figures and numbers there, so we can clearly
demonstrate and show what applications we’re dealing
with.
JESSICA So
yes, you can tell us exactly how much
land?
MARK Certainly
from the OIO’s perspective, and that’s the portfolio
that I’m responsible for, so the answer is yes. But I
think that it’s really important to note that when we’re
talking about offshore investment and overseas capital,
which is actually really important, fundamentally, to our
economy, is that we have got a very extremely robust process
that they have to go through before that actually gets
signed off. And before it’s signed off, there’s got to
be clearly identifiable benefits that go in as part of the
conditions before that investment happens and goes
forward.
JESSICA Let’s
talk about that process, then, because another concern that
came up with people that we spoke to is they feel like they
don’t have a say in the process; they don’t know when a
transaction is imminent, when a foreign buyer is coming in,
and feel like they don’t have a chance to say, ‘Hey,
this is how it’s going to affect us.’ What do you say to
that?
MARK I
think, in terms of—If we take Hunter Valley Station, for
example, that was on the open market for five years, so
people were aware that the owners were trying to sell it.
It’s actually a leasehold station, so they’re trying to
sell the leasehold. And actually under the OIO, there is a
requirement before any transaction goes through in terms of
foreign ownership that it is actually gone out and
advertised in the open market so people are aware of
it.
JESSICA But
people like Fish & Game say they’re just not being
consulted.
MARK Well
they, people are able to engage with the OIO if they have
got a view or they’ve got information that they want to
share around the
transaction.
JESSICA In
terms of the deal, for example, that people might promise
that they will clean up a conservation area or build a
walkway, and that’s part of the sale agreement, do you
check up on whether they actually do it? And how far do you
take it? Do you actually say to them, ‘Look, if you
haven’t met this requirement by this time…’? How does
that work?
MARK So
part of the OIO process, there are a set of conditions that
have to be met, and the OIO will continue to monitor
those.
JESSICA Do
you follow up, though? And what happens? Could you reverse
the
sale?
MARK Yes.
Absolutely it could reverse. There could be a
disposal of the asset. That would be the final step. Before
that, there’s a whole range of options, starting with a
written warning through to fines and then, possibly, the
disposal of the
asset.
JESSICA Do
you require the public to notify you about that, or do
members of the OIO go out and monitor and
check?
MARK No,
it’s a combination. The public certainly can notify us,
the actual investor themselves is required to notify us if
they feel like they can’t meet one of the conditions
attached to the OIO approval, and, of course, we also go out
and enforce
ourselves.
JESSICA How
many breaches have there been,
minister?
MARK There
have been several breaches that we have taken action
on.
JESSICA Can you
give us a ballpark
figure?
MARK I
can’t give you a ballpark figure. All I can say is that
there have been breaches and we have acted on
them.
JESSICA In
terms of this whole situation, the locals and some New
Zealanders in these situations do feel nervous. They do feel
like this is happening without them knowing about it. Is it
time for the government to sit back, take a breath, perhaps
have a register, have something where the public feel as
though it’s more transparent? Do you feel like the
government should be doing
that?
MARK I
think that we should be listening all the time in terms of
if there’s a way to improve a process. And actually, me as
minister, welcome that sort of input, and I’ve had
meetings like that since I’ve taken over the portfolio.
Now we’re Kiwis, and we love owning property, and we have
a keen interest in property, so it’s only natural that we
have a real interest in how we’re actually
managing—
JESSICA Do
we risk, though, becoming tenants in our own country if we
continue to let this
happen?
MARK No,
I don’t think we do. I think that the percentage
of land that goes into foreign ownership and attracts
foreign investment is actually very small, in terms of you
know the productive land that we have in New Zealand, so I
don’t feel like there’s any risk of that at all. And the
fact that we’re monitoring it and watching it very, very
closely also reinforces
that.
JESSICA Does
it matter to you who owns the
land?
MARK Um,
it matters to me in the sense that if we’re going
to have some foreign investment, we should welcome that. We
are an open economy. I’ve just been up to India with a
business delegation where we’ve got Kiwis that are doing
very good investments up
there—
JESSICA But
does it matter to you who owns our
land?
MARK It
matters to me that whoever is going to come and want to own
a piece of New Zealand is that they’re passionate about
New Zealand, is that they have a genuine interest in us and
want to invest in us, and that they are actually going to
deliver real benefits to us. And that’s what
matters.