Sitting date: 23 Oct 2025

ORAL QUESTIONS

QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS

Question No. 1—Internal Affairs

1. TEANAU TUIONO (Green) to the Minister of Internal Affairs: How is the Government ensuring that New Zealand's firefighters are properly equipped and resourced to safely respond to fires happening across Aotearoa recently?

Hon DAVID SEYMOUR (Deputy Prime Minister): on behalf of the Minister of Internal Affairs: I answered a near identical question at great length yesterday, and I would like to refer the member to those answers. I would also like to give thanks to the work of Fire and Emergency New Zealand (FENZ) at this very difficult time with several areas under a state of emergency with fires and severe weather. Their work is always invaluable and deeply valued by New Zealanders on a day like today.

Teanau Tuiono: Are firefighters correct when they say they have to work with equipment that consistently breaks down, with no fleet replacement strategy, and are right now across the country putting their safety at risk protecting our communities from severe weather?

Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: On behalf of the Minister of Internal Affairs, I don't believe that that statement is correct. The Government in the last two years has seen FENZ introduce an asset management plan, which had not been put in place, for some reason, between 2017 and 2023 after FENZ was formed from the voluntary and professional wings of New Zealand's firefighting. The replacement schedule for fire appliances I traversed in detail yesterday, but the Government currently has, I believe, 78 appliances on order. They tend to take 18 to 24 months to deliver because they're highly specialised equipment; five of those are aerial. In total, FENZ is spending around $20 million to $25 million each year on upgrading fire appliances.

Teanau Tuiono: Is it correct that in the past year the fire truck compliance servicing provider has done 446 emergency callouts, more than one a day, due to breakdowns of the ageing fleet?

Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: On behalf of the Minister of Internal Affairs, I don't have verification of that exact figure in front of me, but it may well be true. There are thousands of fire appliances in New Zealand. Of course, if there was to be one callout for a breakdown each day, then that's something, perhaps, the member could imagine.

Teanau Tuiono: Is it correct that the state of the fire appliances is dire and failing, leaving firefighters stranded on the way to calls, at station, or even at incidents without water while internal firefighting?

Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: On behalf of the Minister of Internal Affairs, no, that characterisation is not correct. I've been advised that, for example, there has only been one recent breakdown that led to a two-minute delay in getting to a fire—that's in the past several months, at least. So I think the characterisation of routine breakdowns and danger is simply not sustainable. I do note that due to current industrial negotiations, there appears to be a concerted campaign by some in the fire service, and particularly the New Zealand Professional Firefighters Union, to try and emphasise any incident and present it as being routine when, in fact, that characterisation is not true.

Question No. 2—Prime Minister

2. Hon CARMEL SEPULONI (Deputy Leader—Labour) to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his Government's statements and actions?

Hon DAVID SEYMOUR (Deputy Prime Minister) on behalf of the Prime Minister: Yes, and I would particularly like to reference the efforts of our Minister for Children, Karen Chhour, in improving the safety of children in residences. That has come down 14 percent in the last two years. It's the first time that there has been a reduction of harm to children in State care, as we understand it, in the country's history. That is really quite an achievement, and a poignant one in the wake of the royal commission, which laid bare the history of brutality that has affected so many people and damaged them for life. This is very good news, and it has come because of a precise and deliberate set of actions by the Minister to improve the quality of staffing, to require staff to wear uniforms, to crack down on contraband—for example, by requiring staff to have clear bags so that they couldn't smuggle contraband in—and by proactively managing behaviour in the sites. All of this has led to a 14 percent reduction in young people being harmed. That is really fixing what matters and is a good example of what the Labour Party should be thinking about.

Hon Carmel Sepuloni: Does he stand by his statement "We're ready to meet with the unions at any time."; if so, why is Fire and Emergency New Zealand refusing to turn up to scheduled bargaining with the Professional Firefighters Union?

Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: I certainly do stand by that statement, and I understand that, within 10 minutes of me answering a question on behalf of another Minister yesterday, the Professional Firefighters Union got back in touch, wanting—

Hon Peeni Henare: You corrected it—you corrected yourself.

Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: I did. Actually, I was so effective at answering the question, praising these backbone firefighters, that they decided they did want to come back to the table 10 minutes after I answered the question. That's very effective question answering, I have to say.

Hon Carmel Sepuloni: Why do Government board members deserve an 80 percent pay rise while teachers get an effective pay cut?

Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: The Government's intention is that when we have serious large assets—for example, I refer to Pharmac; that is something that spends $2 billion a year, nearly, on medicines for sick New Zealanders. Now, we want to ensure that the governance—the board of that agency—are paid at a rate that is at least almost comparable to what the same directors would get for private sector companies. There's a real contradiction for the Labour Party here: they want the State to do more, they want more Government agencies to do more stuff—to invest in video games, to start sovereign wealth funds—and yet they don't want to pay the people directing these proposed entities, or even the current ones, even nearly as much as directors get in the private sector. That had to be rectified. In relation to teachers, in the last three years, there has been a 14.5 percent increase in pay for teachers. That is a lot more than many of the New Zealanders who are paying the taxes, making arrangements today around the strikes to have someone look after their kids—it's a lot more than they've got lately. For that reason, the Government needs to balance the interests of Kiwis. There needs to be a sense of realism and a connection between those who are paying the taxes and those who are receiving money from the taxpayer.

Hon Carmel Sepuloni: Why do tobacco companies deserve $300 million while nurses are being offered an effective pay cut?

Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: It is simply a mischaracterisation for the Labour Party to say that tobacco companies have been given $300 million. That simply has not happened. What the Government has done is say that if there is a nicotine-based product that is safer, that has less impact on people's health, and has less impact on the health system, then it should be taxed in proportion to the amount of harm done. Now, the Opposition know this because, when they were in Government, they said there should be zero tax on vapes, because they too subscribed to the principle—although the problem is that they don't know it, because they wouldn't know a principle if they tripped over one.

Hon Carmel Sepuloni: Why is he willing to spend $44,000 on a helicopter trip for his Instagram—the equivalent of nine months' base salary for the firefighters he is offering an effective pay cut to?

Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: On behalf of the Prime Minister, this is the problem. You see, the relationship between New Zealand and Australia is one of the most, if not the most, important relationships between two countries anywhere in the world. That's why we have a meeting and actually invest in our relationship between the New Zealand Prime Minister and the Australian Prime Minister. But the Labour Party says it was for Instagram. You see, that's why they think people do politics—for Instagram—and that is the problem with the Labour Party today. That is why they're over there, and we adults are over here.

Hon Carmel Sepuloni: Should New Zealand workers, doctors, nurses, teachers, and firefighters accept a pay rise below inflation; yes or no?

Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: The Speaker will tell you that you cannot demand yes or no answers. The simple fact is that this Government is balancing the needs of New Zealanders as patients, as taxpayers, and as public health workers. We have to balance all of these, and the offers that have been put on the table are designed to do that—to bring people together and connect the needs and the means of New Zealanders with the demands and the pressures from union organisers.

Hon Carmel Sepuloni: How can he complain about doctors, firefighters, nurses, and teachers unions not acting in good faith when he is threatening to limit their ability to strike because they won't settle for pay rises that don't even match inflation?

Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: Yesterday, the Prime Minister was asked about this precise matter and said he was not aware that that's what the Government is doing. So, again, this is misinformation from the Opposition.

Hon Carmel Sepuloni: Why is he not willing to negotiate with teachers, firefighters, and nurses about fair pay but is willing to negotiate a rates rebate on his $10.5 million mansion?

Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: A couple of things about that: first of all, the Prime Minister is absolutely willing to negotiate with the unions. In fact, the Government has been saying, through the Public Service Commission, that we are prepared to meet and work through the weekend to get a deal to avoid these strikes. The Government is here making the offers, trying to get the Public Service back to work in order for people to be served and we can make a balanced Budget on behalf of New Zealanders for all of our economic future. Now, on the comment about the Prime Minister's personal capacity and his personal residence, there's no responsibility for that except to say that there is a tone that if someone's worked hard all their life and done well, they should be dragged down and they should be embarrassed about their success and having a nice place on Waiheke. Well, actually, on this side of the House we say that success is a good thing and tall poppy is bad.

SPEAKER: I'll just make the point that bringing members' personal circumstances into the House has not been encouraged in the past, and there are any number of reasons why that would be the case, certainly not the least of which is that we come here to represent constituents and not necessarily attack each other.

Question No. 3—Finance

3. SUZE REDMAYNE (National—Rangitīkei) to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has she seen on the economy?

Hon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance): On Tuesday, Stats NZ released the latest monthly trade figures, which cover imports and exports of goods. This data release shows how well New Zealand's exporters are performing. Seasonally adjusted export values were up 0.9 percent in September, following increases of 7 percent in August and 2.2 percent in July. Taking an annual view, in the year to September export values were up 13.5 percent over the previous year. This, of course, reflects the hard work of Kiwis employed across exporting sectors, which support one in four jobs.

Suze Redmayne: What types of exports have been doing well?

Hon Willow-Jean Prime: New Zealanders going to Aussie.

Hon NICOLA WILLIS: Dairy, meat, fruit, and wood together make up over half of New Zealand's goods exports, and these figures are something to celebrate even though Willow-Jean Prime seems to disagree. New Zealand has a well deserved reputation for safe, high-quality food and fibre, and in the year to September dairy exports were up 23 percent compared to the same period last year. Meat exports were up 18 percent, fruit up 33 percent, and wood up 8 percent. Stats NZ notes that a stand-out performer is kiwifruit, now a $4.5 billion a year industry, up from $2.6 billion just two years ago. That is a powerful example of innovation, productivity, and global demand delivering real value for New Zealand.

Suze Redmayne: Which export markets have seen an increase?

Hon NICOLA WILLIS: Well, export values have risen across almost all of New Zealand's overseas markets. In the year to September, goods exports to China increased 15 percent, those to Australia increased 10 percent compared to same period a year ago, and despite higher tariffs New Zealand's goods exports to the United States continue to grow. In the year to September, they were up 8 percent compared to the previous year, with an increase in meat exports being the main driver.

Suze Redmayne: What does this mean for New Zealand's trade balance?

Hon NICOLA WILLIS: For the past 30 years, New Zealand has typically recorded an annual goods trade deficit—that is, we import more than we export. This deficit reached its highest levels in 2022 and 2023, peaking at a whopping $17 billion. Since then, it has narrowed considerably. This week's data shows an annual trade deficit of only $2 billion. That improvement is flowing through to the balance of payments. The current account deficit was a record 9 percent in the year to December 2022. It is now down to 3.7 percent in the year to June 2025, and further improvement is expected in the September quarter, driven by continuing strong growth in exports. It's always a good day to thank the farmers.

Suze Redmayne: What is the Government doing to support the export industry?

Hon NICOLA WILLIS: The Government is doing a lot to help that sector, including with a very ambitious trade agenda. Since coming into Government, we have concluded a trade agreement with the Gulf Cooperation Council; concluded, signed, and entered into force a trade agreement with the United Arab Emirates; expedited early entry into force of the agreement with the European Union; launched formal negotiations with India; and we are pursuing new opportunities across South-east Asia. New Zealand makes things the world wants to buy, and the Government will keep backing hard-working Kiwi exporters.

Question No. 4—Education

4. Dr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green) to the Minister of Education: E tautoko ana ia i ngā kōrero me ngā mahi katoa a tōna Kāwanatanga?

[Does she stand by all of the Government's statements and actions?]

Hon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education): Yes, within the bounds of my ministerial responsibility.

Hon Members: What? We can't hear.

SPEAKER: Look, there is always a lot of noise going on in the House. I will ask—

Hon Chris Bishop: If you shut up, you might listen.

SPEAKER: Why are you talking while I am? I will ask the Minister to speak more clearly into the microphone but not repeat the answer.

Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan: Why is she condemning basic requests for decent pay and working conditions when we lose 50 percent of secondary school teachers in the first five years?

Hon ERICA STANFORD: I'm sorry, I missed the second part of that question. Could you say it again?

Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan: Why is she condemning basic requests for decent pay and working conditions when we lose 50 percent of high school teachers in the first five years?

Hon ERICA STANFORD: The simple answer is we're not.

Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan: Does she stand by her statement, "We have so many brilliant teachers, and when we back them we get results", and, if so, does she think backing teachers means pitting them and unions against whānau and students?

Hon ERICA STANFORD: Well, no. What I have been very clear on is the fact that we have been backing our amazing teachers for the last 18 months with the incredible amount of resource that we have been delivering straight to the front line. The three-quarters of a billion dollars of learning support that they so desperately have been asking for. The pathways to principalship, which we have recently announced. The fact that we are paying their teacher registration fees. The professional learning and development opportunities that we have been giving them over the last 18 months—tens of millions of dollars' worth. We have been at the table; we have delivered good pay offers. But it's a shame that one of the unions hasn't even bothered to take it to their members. If they were at the bargaining table, like the Primary Principals' Collective Bargaining Union, there would be a good outcome, but they're not.

Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan: Is it backing teachers to have 55 percent—well over the OECD average of 33 percent—reporting that their stress is due to keeping up with curriculum or programme changes, especially when schools are already unable to properly staff existing subjects?

Hon ERICA STANFORD: Well, that's exactly why this week and next week we've been holding the curriculum roadshow, with hundreds of principals and leaders in venues across the country. [Interruption]

SPEAKER: Just a minute. You can't, on the one hand, complain that you can't hear what's being said, and then speak over the Minister answering. We'll hear the rest of the question in silence.

Hon ERICA STANFORD: That's why we have been holding curriculum road shows up and down the country this week, with the intent of unpacking the new curriculum, talking about all of the supports—

Hon Ginny Andersen: How's that going?

Hon ERICA STANFORD: —and implementation—

Hon Chris Bishop: Really well.

Hon ERICA STANFORD: —that have been offered to schools and teachers across the country. It has been going really well. We have been completely packed out. In fact, in Auckland we are oversubscribed because teachers and principals and leaders of curriculum can see the value in turning up to these road shows. But what I would say to the unions is the fact that they told principals and teachers to boycott the very thing that was going to provide them the supports that they needed to implement the curriculum is a real shame.

Hon Carmel Sepuloni: Rubbish!

SPEAKER: Sorry, are people just perhaps looking for the opportunity to leave early, because they don't have to. The whip is off—

Hon Carmel Sepuloni: Point of order, Mr Speaker.

SPEAKER: —right up until—I'm speaking!—6 o'clock, so there's no need for any theatrics that might see people asked to leave early.

Hon Carmel Sepuloni: Point of order, Mr Speaker. We were trying to abide by your request not to speak during the answer of that Minister, but the other side started making noise, so you can expect a little to and fro going on when that occurs, Mr Speaker.

SPEAKER: Perhaps I'm a victim of being able to hear better from this ear than I am from that one, or perhaps the volume from this side is louder than it is from over here. Either way, we'll just conduct ourselves in a much more seemly fashion from this point.

Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan: Does she think it is fair to teachers, who work on average 6.5 hours a week more than the OECD teachers' average and just want to do their best for students, to say they're pulling a stunt by going on strike?

Hon ERICA STANFORD: As I've already said, we are backing our teachers by making sure that they have the resources and the supports that they need to implement the new curriculum, and to have more supports in the classroom when it comes to learning support. Teachers have been asking us and previous Governments, for a really long time, to help reduce the workload on them. That's exactly what we've been doing with curriculum reforms, with maths books and textbooks being delivered into classrooms, with three-quarters of a billion dollars' worth of learning support delivered into classrooms. Not everything is delivered through collective bargaining; sometimes you get a Government who listens to teachers and principals on the front line and who delivers for them in other ways, which is exactly what we have done.

Question No. 5—Transport

5. DAN BIDOIS (National—Northcote) to the Minister of Transport: What announcements has he made about the Bikes in Schools programme?

Hon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport): I was thrilled to announce last week, at Wilford School in Petone, that the Government has made a new $3.5 million funding commitment to ensure the Bikes in Schools programme can go from strength to strength. Bikes in Schools was first funded in 2010. It's a great programme. It provides opportunities for primary and intermediate school kids to learn the basics of riding a bike safely, and it's fantastic to see this programme rolling out around the country once again.

Dan Bidois: What will this new money go towards?

Hon CHRIS BISHOP: Funding of $3.5 million has been confirmed from the New Zealand Transport Agency, from the national road safety promotion programme. It supports the Bike On New Zealand Charitable Trust, and basically, it builds bike tracks in schools, provides bikes and helmets for students, and it enables kids to learn how to ride a bike safely during the school day, and, of course, outside of school hours. I'm informed that often these bike tracks become real community hubs on the weekend.

Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall: Will you be teaching them to ride scooters?

Hon CHRIS BISHOP: What's that? Teach them how to ride scooters?

SPEAKER: No, no, no, no. Carry on with your answer.

Hon CHRIS BISHOP: This will be a good one.

SPEAKER: That's it. That's the end of that. Is there another supplementary?

Dan Bidois: Yes. [Interruption]

SPEAKER: Just wait until the House is a bit quiet. Can I just say, to the Government side, as much as you might think the Minister needs assistance to answer a question, he doesn't.

Dan Bidois: What success has the Bikes in Schools programme had?

Hon CHRIS BISHOP: This is pretty awesome. Since 2010, more than 400 schools have got on board with Bikes in Schools. Thousands of kids have learnt how to practice safe biking in schools. I do want to thank Paul McArdle and the team at the Bike On New Zealand Charitable Trust. It's a very successful programme, well loved by communities across the country, and I'm advised that $3.5 million over the next couple of years will enable between 40 and 60 more schools to roll out bike tracks and bikes.

Dan Bidois: Who will benefit from the Bikes in Schools programme?

Hon CHRIS BISHOP: Well, it's tempting to make comments around policy wobbles this week, but what I will say is the most important people who will benefit from the Bikes in Schools programme are our young kids who will learn how to ride a bike safely. There's also a flow-on benefit to tradies in local communities who go out and do this very important work. Some of it's small work, but it's important work none the less.

Question No. 6—Social Development and Employment

6. Hon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour) to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Does she stand by her 50,000 jobseeker reduction target?

Hon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment): Yes, I absolutely stand by that target. We know it's challenging, but our goal is to grow the economy and help more Kiwis into work as we had seen welfare dependency balloon, when we came into office. Our Government won't lower our targets just because they're challenging. Despite global headwinds, more New Zealanders are moving off benefits and into jobs—over 20,000 last quarter alone. Through stronger case management, training, and practical support, we're backing Kiwis to become work ready, independent, and part of our country's recovery and growth.

Hon Willie Jackson: How many more job seekers are there now compared to when she came into office in November 2023?

Hon LOUISE UPSTON: Well, we have seen an increase in the number of people on the jobseeker benefit, which is what we would expect. But the good news is actually the unemployment rate has not gone up as high as the Treasury forecast when those guys left office. We've seen it at 5.2 percent. It's higher than we would like, but it is the 30-year average. But for every person who loses a job, this side of the House knows it's challenging. That's why we're not sitting on our laurels and we're doing everything we can to help them.

Hon Willie Jackson: Is it the case that she is now closer to adding 50,000 job seekers than she is to removing 50,000 job seekers, and, if so, will she resign if the target is not met?

Hon LOUISE UPSTON: Well, as I've said in this House before, 50,000 is an ambitious target and not one that we will shy away from, because we know the enormous difference that work makes. When we came in, the figures were going the wrong way. It was forecast to peak in December. As I said, the unemployment rate actually isn't as high as was forecast when we came in, despite the challenges we've faced. Every single one of those 50,000 makes an enormous difference—to them, their whānau, the community, and our country. And that's why we're not shying away from the target.

Hon Willie Jackson: How many of the 249 people who have lost their jobs recently in Tokoroa are now on jobseeker?

Hon LOUISE UPSTON: Well, I'm really proud of the work that the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) is doing on the ground in Tokoroa and to be part of Project Phoenix. We are looking at supporting those workers immediately. So some have relocated, others have moved into other opportunities in town. I really feel for the families that haven't lost their jobs just yet but it is coming in the current weeks. I would welcome that member joining Project Phoenix to help the efforts that we're doing on the ground on behalf of our community to support those who are in that very challenging position of either having lost or perhaps losing their jobs in the coming weeks.

Hon Willie Jackson: What does she say to the South Waikato Mayor Gary Petley, who said the Government "doesn't give a toss" about regional New Zealand and, "All that Government [crap] they spin—it's all a smokescreen."?

Hon LOUISE UPSTON: Well, I would just say that I've been working incredibly productively, not just with the mayor and the council but also the local union who values the work that I'm doing on the ground in the community. And as I say, if he's really worried about those workers, I'd invite him to join me.

Hon Willie Jackson: What does she say to Gilbert Sydney, who was made redundant from Kinleith, found a job next door at the plywood plant, only to be made redundant from that job as well, and who said, and I quote, "There's literally no jobs around, not locally … we literally have to travel like an hour and a half even to find a job."—what does the Minister say to Gilbert Sydney?

Hon LOUISE UPSTON: I have met with many of those affected in Tokoroa and I know how challenging it is. What we are doing is making sure that the welfare system is far more proactive than it's ever been before. We've seen a 60 percent increase in the proactive engagements that MSD is having on the ground, 83,000 people left benefits into jobs in the last year, despite it being challenging, so we are not shying away from the challenge. Eighty-three thousand left a benefit for jobs—83,000. That's a good number.

Question No. 7—Children

7. SIMON COURT (ACT) to the Minister for Children: What recent data has she seen on findings of harm in State care residences?

Hon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children): I've seen the Oranga Tamariki Safety of Children in Care report, which, for the first time ever in New Zealand, showed a decrease in harm within secure residential placements. There has been a 14 percent reduction in findings of harm since 2024. Any harm is unacceptable, but it must be acknowledged that the significant programme of work across the secure residences is seeing positive results. The introduction of standard operating practices, improved recruitment, training and programming, and a refreshed induction process—among many other things—is resulting in improved safety and wellbeing for those in secure residential care.

Simon Court: What other work has been undertaken to improve the safety and wellbeing in residences?

Hon KAREN CHHOUR: In addition to the recruitment, training, and induction for staff, additional investment in Budget 2025 for professionalisation of the workforce will build on this work and promote enhanced safety. This will ensure we have a confident and capable workforce with the skills necessary to work effectively with young people in secure residences. We have also committed to significant infrastructure upgrades at residences to make sure that they are safe and secure for young people, with this work getting under way before the end of the year. We've also invested in leadership training for our team leaders and resident managers, as it is essential that those at the top have the skills and capabilities to lead and to ensure the culture in residences is one of safety, security, and accountability.

Simon Court: What does the data show about children and young people in return-home placements?

Hon KAREN CHHOUR: We must acknowledge what is working and where there is still room for improvement. The data shows a disproportionately higher number of children and young people living in return- or remain-home placements experienced harm. These are placements where a child is in the legal custody of the chief executive but has either returned to, or remained in, the care of their immediate family—usually parents. Thirteen percent of children in return- or remain-home placements had a finding of harm. This is one of the reasons why I have always said that the ultimate consideration in decision making about the child must be safety.

Hon Willow-Jean Prime: Why did you cut funding?

Hon KAREN CHHOUR: While, ideally, every child would be in a safe and loving home with their parents, unfortunately, we know this is not always possible.

Hon Willow-Jean Prime: Where's the support?

Hon KAREN CHHOUR: In these situations, the needs and the best interests of children must always come first, and I'll continue to advocate for that.

SPEAKER: The Hon Willow-Jean Prime. Have you got a question?

Hon Willow-Jean Prime: Me?

SPEAKER: Yes, you've been calling your question out most of the afternoon.

Simon Court: What else does the data show about findings of harm of children and young people in State care?

Hon KAREN CHHOUR: I acknowledge that the latest Safety of Children in Care report shows that, in the 12 months to 31 March 2025, there was an increase of 23 children and young people who had a finding of harm compared to the previous year. It is important to note that the majority—over 60 percent—of this harm to children in care was not caused by the person that was responsible for their care. The harm was caused by someone else, be it by another child or a wider family member not responsible for their care, or by an adult not related or known to them. Any harm to a child, whether in care or not in care, is not OK, and of course this is something that I'm really concerned about, and that's the safety of children, and it will remain my top priority as Minister. At the same time, it is important to acknowledge where progress has been made, such as in residences, and to recognise the hard work done by the front-line staff who are dealing with these issues every day.

Question No. 8—Housing

8. GRANT McCALLUM (National—Northland) to the Associate Minister of Housing: What recent announcements has he made on housing?

Hon TAMA POTAKA (Associate Minister of Housing): Earlier this week, I announced Government support of $34 million for the Bisset Road development in Kaikohe, within contractual arrangements, led by Ngāpuhi. This development will help deliver a hundred affordable rental homes in Kaikohe. The investment shows iwi and Crown in mahi tahi—or working together—in Kaikohe, making it the largest community-led affordable housing project in the Far North, home of hard-working MP Grant McCallum. It's a great example of iwi-Crown partnership in action—Ngāpuhi leading the project, investing in their own resources, and the Government backing them to deliver at scale.

Grant McCallum: How does this benefit the people of Kaikohe?

Hon TAMA POTAKA: Northland—or Te Tai Tokerau—has some of the highest levels of housing need in the country, due to a range of pressures. This investment directly addresses those challenges with a hundred new affordable rentals. All homes will be retained as affordable rentals for at least 25 years, with rents capped at 80 percent of market levels. Ngāpuhi will also provide wraparound Whānau Ora and hauora support for tenants. In addition, over a hundred fulltime-equivalent roles are expected during construction, supporting local jobs and apprentices, like Tai, who I met on Monday, up there on Guy Road in Kaikohe, who are creating real homes, local jobs, and opportunities that last alongside, with, and for Māori and all New Zealanders.

Grant McCallum: When will the homes be ready?

Hon TAMA POTAKA: Civil works are expected to start in November 2025, with the full development of a hundred homes to be expected to be completed by mid-2027.

Grant McCallum: How does this fit in with the Government's commitment to partnering with iwi to deliver Māori housing?

Hon TAMA POTAKA: Since December 2023, $426 million has been approved in three tranches for Māori-led delivery of around a thousand homes. The new homes are a range of papa kāinga housing, owner-occupied housing, and affordable rentals. Projects are focused, for the most part, where housing pressure is the highest, such as Te Tai Tokerau—or Northland—Rotorua; and Te Tairāwhiti, the East Coast, with suitable typologies and addressing shortages for kaumātua, single parents, and young couples. Through partnerships with iwi and Māori housing providers, like Waikato-Tainui, Ngāti Rēhia, and Ngāti Rangi—

Hon Willie Jackson: Peeni funded them. You funded no houses.

Hon TAMA POTAKA: —hundreds of homes are under way, including some of one of the members over there who's calling out his father-in-law's brother. Partnering with iwi and Māori organisations will help deliver housing to support stronger whānau and stronger communities, and to ensure that Māori solutions remain central to how we address housing need across Aotearoa New Zealand.

Question No. 9—Education

9. Hon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour) to the Minister of Education: Does she stand by her statement, "it's so disappointing that they are playing politics, that they are choosing to go on strike", and will she meet with the predicted over 40,000 striking educators to address their concerns?

Hon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education): Yes, I am very disappointed with the unions, following their choice to strike. They haven't prioritised bargaining in good faith, and teachers, parents, and students are paying the price. The member has asked a question in a very odd way—of course I can't meet with 40,000 people. However, I am meeting with members to address their concerns during the Curriculum Roadshow, where we are unpacking the curriculum, explaining the supports, resources, and professional learning and development available, and explaining how they can implement the reforms in their classrooms. These have been the concerns that the unions have raised, and it's confounding that the unions have advised their members to boycott the very events that their members were calling for. But due to the professionalism of the sector, we've had full events with engaged leaders who see the value of the support that we're providing.

Hon Willow-Jean Prime: Does she stand by her statement that she has "hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of friends," and is that more than the 40,000 educators who are striking?

Hon ERICA STANFORD: Well, I do stand by that statement because the member is referring to a question that she asked yesterday about my Curriculum Roadshow. There are hundreds and hundreds of educators up and down the country who are coming to the Curriculum Roadshow and there are hundreds more watching online, and I would advise that member that she would have more friends if she answered her text messages.

Hon Willow-Jean Prime: Does she stand by her statement that Sir Brian Roche "is trying desperately to negotiate in good faith" when he's in charge of a Public Service Commission that ran anti-strike attack ads?

Hon ERICA STANFORD: Firstly, in relation to Sir Brian Roche, you can see from the emails that were released under the Official Information Act request in the last 48 hours that there is significant frustration on his part when he is trying to negotiate in good faith and get unions to the table. You can see where, of course, in one regard, he has had extraordinary success with the Primary Principals' Collective Bargaining union, which is a union that was prepared not to go on strike, but to turn up to negotiations, to be open and transparent, to put forward what it wanted to bargain on, and to come to a settlement, and the ads that I have seen are not attack ads. They are simply information ads that the public should have the access to information on.

Hon Willow-Jean Prime: Why does she choose to undermine unions, rather than actually listen to their concerns?

Hon ERICA STANFORD: I'm not undermining the unions; I'm just pointing out that they're not acting in good faith. But, in fact, there is one union that is acting in good faith and has settled, and that's the Primary Principals' Collective Bargaining union. I would make the point, again, that their membership grows by the day because principals can see that their own unions are not acting in good faith, and they want to settle.

Hon Willow-Jean Prime: Why did she claim that unions are bullying when it's educators who have voted to strike?

Hon ERICA STANFORD: Those comments that I made this morning about unions who were bullying were in relation to conversations that I have had with teachers and principals who have spoken out in the media with a different view, and who have then had enormous pressure put on them by the union. In fact, that was backed up by a text message from a principal that I received after I made—[Interruption]

SPEAKER: No, stop. Start the answer again, and people will listen quietly.

Hon ERICA STANFORD: I made those comments in relation to a question that I was asked this morning, when the presenter, Ryan Bridge, made the comment that perhaps principals and teachers weren't speaking out because they felt like they were bullied, and I agreed with him. That was from a conversation that I've had with teachers and principals who have come out in the media with a different perspective on things and who have had enormous pressure put on them by the union. I would also say that that was backed up by a text message from a principal that I received after I made that comment, saying that my comments were so true—and the word "so" had about five "o"s on it.

Hon Willow-Jean Prime: Will she apologise to the education sector for promising pay rises when she was in Opposition and failing to deliver them now that she's the Minister?

Hon ERICA STANFORD: Well, if the unions were prepared to be at the table—like the Primary Principals' Collective Bargaining union—and come to a settlement, then they would find that there are pay rises on the table. Unfortunately, one of the unions hasn't even bothered to put the offer to its members before striking. If the unions were at the table in good faith, they would find that we are there, ready to negotiate.

Question No. 10—Health

10. RICARDO MENÉNDEZ MARCH (Green) to the Minister of Health: Do nurses have safe staffing levels; if so, what evidence does he have to demonstrate that?

Hon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health): As I said yesterday, yes. Since coming into office, this Government has added around 2,000 more nurses to the public health system compared to 2023, alongside hundreds of additional doctors. That's backed by a record additional $16.68 billion of investment in health over three Budgets. I'm advised that patient safety measures, such as in-hospital deaths, surgical site infections, and in-hospital falls have been stable or improved over the last five years. Another indicator is hospital capacity. While bed numbers have increased by 175 over the past three years, the number of nurses employed has grown by more than 3,000 during that same time period, strengthening the level of care available to patients. Health New Zealand is committed to safe care. That's why we're growing the health workforce and holding the system accountable through clear health targets so patients get the care they need when they need it.

Ricardo Menéndez March: Is it correct that the Care Capacity Demand Management (CCDM) system data, the tool to measure actual patient need presenting in our hospitals, shows that nurses are facing unsafe working conditions?

Hon SIMEON BROWN: Well, as the Chief Clinical Officer at Health New Zealand, Richard Sullivan, says, the CCDM system contains moment-in-time operational data and is not a direct proxy for unsafe or safe staffing. As Health New Zealand has said publicly, using this tool in isolation to claim that wards are understaffed and unsafe is misleading, and actually there is a range of factors that need to be taken into account, including those factors that I referred to in my primary answer: such as in-hospital deaths, surgical site infections, and in-hospital falls, which have been stable or improved over the last five years, and also, as I said, hospital capacity. While bed numbers have increased by 175 over the past three years, the number of nurses employed has grown by more than 3,000 during that same time period.

Ricardo Menéndez March: Who is correct: the Minister of Health, who said that nurses have safe working conditions, or Jade Power, a registered nurse, who said, "Many nurses work past their shifts unpaid because there is no one to hand over to. Breaks are missed, exhaustion is growing, and compassion fatigue is setting in. It's unsustainable."?

Hon SIMEON BROWN: Well, I acknowledge the hard work of our nursing staff and our doctors and all of the healthcare professionals, who work incredibly hard in our healthcare system, but I would also point to the facts, and I think we have to take into account the facts as put to me by the Chief Clinical Officer of Health New Zealand, who looks at a range of factors when it comes to safety in our hospitals, including measures such as in-hospital deaths, surgical site infections, and in-hospital falls, which have been stable or improving in the last five years; hospital capacity, which shows that 175 additional beds have been built, and the number of nurses employed has grown by over 3,000 during that same time period. There is a range of factors we take into account to look at patient safety in our health system, and it's good to see the increased resourcing going to the front line.

Ricardo Menéndez March: Is he saying that the countless nurses who have raised concerns around unsafe working conditions are wrong?

Hon SIMEON BROWN: What I am saying is that there is a range of factors that are taken into account, and the Chief Clinical Officer of Health New Zealand has been explaining it. I'd also point to the comments by the CEO of Health New Zealand, Dale Bramley—

Ricardo Menéndez March: Is he a nurse?

Hon SIMEON BROWN: —Dr Dale Bramley, who says, "One of the biggest clinical safety risks in our hospitals right now, for patients, is waiting times." We inherited long waiting times, and unions which strike continue to extend those waiting times for patients.

Question No. 11—Mental Health

11. CARL BATES (National—Whanganui) to the Minister for Mental Health: What recent announcements has he made about crisis recovery cafés?

Hon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for Mental Health): Our mental health plan is focused on delivering results, faster access to support, more front-line workers, and a better crisis response. Recently, I opened Whanganui's new crisis recovery cafe, the first of six cafes being rolled out by the Government across the country. The new crisis recovery cafe is being delivered by Balance Aotearoa, with Government backing to bring the idea to life. Whether it's your child, a friend, or a family member reaching out for support, we're committed to ensuring support is there.

Carl Bates: What is a crisis recovery cafe?

Hon MATT DOOCEY: One of my top priorities is to improve access to mental health support so we can ensure all Kiwis have the help they need when and where it's needed. Crisis cafes are a peer delivered service and provide a safe, relaxed non-clinical setting for people who are in distress and need to talk someone face to face. Sitting in the emergency department or in clinical settings at a time of mental distress can be a very challenging place for people. Crisis recovery cafes provide an alternative, welcoming place to go when people need support. To deliver a better crisis response we want to ensure there is someone to call, someone to respond, and somewhere to go.

Carl Bates: What other areas are receiving Government support for crisis recovery cafes?

Hon MATT DOOCEY: Our mental health plan is working, with over 80 percent of people seen within three weeks for specialist services and the front-line mental health workforce growing around 10 percent since coming into office. Earlier this year, I announced funding for the Wellington City Mission's crisis cafe as part of the Government's mental health community innovation fund. The funding boost allowed the mission to scale up to 24 hours. Tomorrow, I'll visit Whakatane's resilience cafe, who, with their funding boost will extend their opening hours, employ more peer support workers, and double their capacity. No matter where you live, this Government is committed to ensuring that timely support is there.

Carl Bates: What feedback has he seen on the Government's roll-out of crisis recovery cafes?

Hon MATT DOOCEY: This Government is not just focused on ensuring the right support is in place to treat mental health issues, but we focus strongly on preventing Kiwis from getting to that point. Tony said "Awesome for Whanganui! Top work by the Government. We have to be open to new ideas to support those with mental illness, and this seems like it has huge potential." Bobby said "It's an amazing experience there for everyone who uses it. Absolutely no bad stigma or to be made to feel bad. I really think the entire concept is somewhat magical." Behind every one of these new services are hundreds of Kiwis now getting the support they need.

Question No. 12—Economic Growth

12. Hon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour) to the Minister for Economic Growth: Does she agree with Nicola Willis that a National-led Government "will rebuild the economy to reduce the cost of living and help Kiwis get ahead"?

Hon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister for Economic Growth): Yes. Members of the House will be interested to know that I made that statement in 2023, in a press release titled "Labour in economic 'la la land', planning more taxes". The more things change, the more they stay the same. Of course, at that time, inflation was running at 5.6 percent. It's now been back in band for more than five quarters. Food price inflation was running at 8.8 percent; it is now down to 4.6 percent. And the official cash rate had been rapidly rising, reaching a peak of 5.5 percent; it is now down to 2.5 percent. Of course, also since then, the Government has delivered tax relief to more than 1.9 million households—tax relief opposed by Labour.

Hon Ginny Andersen: How does a pay offer for teachers, firefighters, and nurses that does not keep up with the cost of living help Kiwis to get ahead?

Hon NICOLA WILLIS: I reject the assertion in that question.

Hon Ginny Andersen: How can the estimated 100,000 Kiwis who have walked off the job today get ahead when they are overworked and undervalued by her Government?

Hon NICOLA WILLIS: Well, our Government values greatly the work by nurses, teachers, firefighters, and others on the public payroll, and what we would say to them is that they would be able to get a pay rise much more rapidly if their union went back to the bargaining table instead of playing politics.

Hon Ginny Andersen: Why is her Government handing Crown board directors pay rises of up to 80 percent while teachers and nurses are struggling to cope with the cost of living crisis?

Hon NICOLA WILLIS: Well, I find this an interesting question, because I understand that the member's party is quite enamoured by Temasek, which, of course, is an interesting model for running Crown assets. Temasek is distinguished by a couple of things, members: one of them is that it often sells assets and purchases others, and another factor is that it pays its directors well because it wants the companies to be run well. Our Government came in to a number of basket-cases in terms of Crown entity management, including Kāinga Ora and ACC, and we are determined to run those services and assets better on behalf of taxpayers.

Hon Ginny Andersen: Are teachers, doctors, prison staff, and firefighters wrong to ask for safe working conditions and pay that keeps up with the cost of living?

Hon NICOLA WILLIS: Obviously not.

Hon Ginny Andersen: Is she surprised that 200 New Zealanders leave our shores each day—each day—when her Government refuses to pay hard-working front-line workers what they're worth?

Hon NICOLA WILLIS: Well, I would just like to share with that member a statistic that I certainly find interesting, and it is this: in the 21 months of data since this Government came into office, annual net departures of New Zealand citizens increased by 5,800. This contrasts with the 21 months prior to that, under the previous Government—

Hon Peeni Henare: Call the fire service.

Hon NICOLA WILLIS: —through which annual—listen up, Peeni Henare, because annual net departures of New Zealand citizens increased by 38,000—[Interruption]

SPEAKER: Sorry—sorry—we're going to start again. We're not having that barracking across the House.

Hon NICOLA WILLIS: Let me summarise my answer, which is this: under the last 21 months of the Government of which that member was in Cabinet, annual net departures of New Zealand citizens increased by 38,000. In the 21 months since this Government has been in office, that number was 5,800, so our record stacks up better than yours on that and many, many other things, including the fact we include numbers in our policies.

SPEAKER: That concludes oral questions. Members should be leaving the House quietly while we have the committee change over.

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