Shane Taurima Interviews Judith Collins
 
Minister opens door to future alcohol excise increases – “…it’s something that we’ll look at in the future… That’s something we might do in the future.”
 
Doesn’t rule out health warnings on alcohol ads – will establish an expert panel to offer advice, but not opposed to alcohol ads on TV.
 
Collins says Coroner’s recommendation to have warnings on alcohol bottles is “not an unreasonable call”, but may have limited impact.
 
Will vote for split age and predicts 18-20 age will be passed, though narrowly.
 
Would be “more efficient” to have party votes on alcohol purchase age, rather than conscience vote.
 
Is OK with alcohol sponsorship of concerts, sports and clubs, but not with targeting teens.
 
Has asked ministry to investigate minimum price and whether it makes the difference claimed.
 
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Q+A
 
SHANE TAURIMA INTERVIEWS JUDITH COLLINS
 
 
GREG BOYED
Shane Taurima spoke to Justice Minister Judith Collins on Friday and began by asking if she thought alcohol is too cheap and whether it needs to be more expensive.
 
JUDITH COLLINS - Justice Minister
Well, I think alcohol is too accessible. I’m not sure about the price of it, because certainly it’s very accessible, and I think particularly if you go into any of the lower-socio economic parts of New Zealand, you’ll find it highly accessible on almost every corner and little pop-up dairies around the place just promoting alcohol.
 
SHANE TAURIMA
So you’re doing something about the dairies; why not the supermarkets if it’s that accessible?
 
JUDITH          Well, the fact is that 85% of New Zealanders drink alcohol, and the vast majority of those people drink alcohol with no bad effects. They are very responsible. They’re not binge drinking, they’re not drinking and driving, they’re doing what everyone would expect them to do. So we don’t want to penalise those people. But at the same time, we do know that there are some sellers of alcohol who specifically target people with the highest level of alcohol content that they can and that those people don’t worry about the age limits, they don’t worry about being responsible, and we certainly are targeting them.
 
SHANE           The Law Commission disagrees, though, with the theory that it’s only in reference to a very small minority of the population, and let me quote them. ‘Most of the acute harm is actually associated with the majority of the drinking population.’ They talk about 700,000 heavy drinkers here in New Zealand, so that’s not a small minority.
 
JUDITH          I think it’s very difficult for them to make that claim because what we’ll often find is that somebody might well drink heavily one day. That doesn’t mean to say they do it the next day or any other day that month. There’s nothing like a hangover to get someone thinking whether or not they should be acting in that way, and the vast majority of people in this country do not abuse alcohol. I just cannot believe that the vast majority of New Zealanders do abuse it. It’s not my experience, and I don’t think it’s the experience of most.
 
SHANE           The definition of a heavy drinker is a person that will consume more than seven standard drinks in one session. Is that acceptable?
 
JUDITH          Well, I think that is too much, obviously, but the fact is that most people don’t abuse alcohol. Most people don’t indulge in that sort of abuse, and I think that we have to have legislation that is reasonable, that’s pragmatic. Already what I’m proposing has been criticised by the hospitality industry as being far too hard on them. It’s also being criticised by other people as being far too soft. It’s right down the middle. It’s pragmatic, it’s sensible. It’s the first attempt by any government to limit alcohol.
 
SHANE           The Law Commission says that their evidence suggests that the majority of drinkers get drunk occasionally. Just over 20% drink in a potentially hazardous manner, and about 10% drink enough to get drunk every week. Does that surprise you?
 
JUDITH          Well, I think that they have obviously done some sort of survey, and they’ve come up with that. But I think it’s not unusual for somebody within their lifetime to overindulge in alcohol, but the fact is most people don’t do this all the time. We’re also looking at the fact that this is a legal substance in New Zealand. It’s always been legal here.
 
SHANE           But it’s a harmful substance.
 
JUDITH          Well, it’s also, for most people, not harmful if it’s not abused. It’s not like tobacco where there is no limit, no safe use of tobacco at all. It’s is always harmful; always will be.
 
SHANE           Raising the price a little - would it impact significantly on moderate drinkers if there’s not a problem, as you suggest?
 
JUDITH          Well, actually, I’ve got the Ministry of Justice looking at a minimum price regime - where it’s in place and does it make the difference that people tell me it would? But I can also point out to you that the hospitality industry supports a minimum price because it would drive more people into drinking in their establishments rather than drinking at home.
 
SHANE           On the issue of minimum pricing, you’ve asked your ministry to investigate further.
 
JUDITH          Yes.
 
SHANE           But what about increasing the tax excise rate, like what you’ve done on tobacco? That’s something you could do right now.
 
JUDITH          Well, the government can do that, and every government has the opportunity, particularly around Budget time to consider that.
 
SHANE           Did you consider it?
 
JUDITH          I don’t discuss what happens in Cabinet, but it’s something that might in the future happen again.
 
SHANE           Do you personally support increasing the excise tax?
 
JUDITH          My view is very firmly that the excise tax we have now clearly should be used, a big chunk of it should be used towards alcohol and drug rehabilitation.
 
SHANE           But would you like more excise tax?
 
JUDITH          Well, it’s something that we’ll look at in the future.
 
SHANE           The Law Commission has completed extensive research. They came out with the recommendation that the government increase the excise tax by 50%.
 
JUDITH          Well, that’s something we might do in the future, but I also think that you need to look at the fact that we are not trying to actually stop all alcohol sales in this country. This is not like, tobacco, actually-
 
SHANE           But you’re trying to minimise harm, aren’t you?
 
JUDITH          Oh yes, absolutely. But I’m not trying to penalise in the sherry tax debacle that Jim Anderton brought in. This is not tobacco. This is something that is a legal substance which, for most people, will not cause them ongoing harm if they do not abuse it.
 
SHANE           Why aren’t your reforms addressing the issue of drink driving and the current limit when the Law Commission made the very clear recommendation that the limits be lowered?
 
JUDITH          Well, actually, Shane, at the moment, at the 0.8 alcohol to blood limit we’ve got now, 32,000 people are currently going through the courts in any year on drunk driving charges. One of the big differences between this country and some other countries who have a 0.5% limit is that this country enforces drink driving laws.
 
SHANE           Australia, for example, who has 0.5, they don’t enforce it?
 
JUDITH          I’m saying to you is that Australia has very much an urban environment for most of their people, the vast majority. The rest are off in far-flung rural communities. We have a country very small, physically small, but extremely well policed around road policing. Just bringing down a limit of 0.5 will make no difference unless it’s enforced. The current law is being enforced. The fact that 32,000 people are currently going before the courts in a year on drink driving charges tells me that some people still haven’t got the message.
 
SHANE           So why then not reduce the limit? If the message isn’t getting through, why then not lower the limit?
 
JUDITH          Do you think we would do better with 60,000 people going through the courts?
 
SHANE           Well, would we?
 
JUDITH          Well, I don’t know. That’s why the Ministry of Transport is doing the work.
 
SHANE           Wouldn’t that send a very clear message, though? If you say that the message isn’t getting through, by lowering the limit, making it harder, wouldn’t that send a very clear message?
 
JUDITH          It would certainly send a message, but it wouldn’t if you tried to enforce it and you didn’t have either the resources or the support of the population. The fact is most of the population very much support the police and the work that they do around the 0.8%.
 
SHANE           Do you think alcohol sponsorship of clubs, sports events, rock concerts and other events like that is acceptable?
 
JUDITH          Yes, I do, actually.
 
SHANE           Because?
 
JUDITH          Because actually 85% of the population use alcohol. They do so responsibly. The vast majority of them do. I don’t believe for a moment that the vast majority of New Zealanders abuse alcohol, and I think the issue, though, is the targeting of young people.
 
SHANE           Is that OK?
 
JUDITH          It’s not OK. Targeting of young people is not OK, and that’s why in this bill we’ve got a vision to actually make that illegal, that it will not be acceptable to have advertisements with obviously very young people promoting the alcohol product. So I think that that is a balanced approach to it.
 
SHANE           What about the Tui ads? They’re obviously targeting young people We all have a laugh at them. We see them on the TV; we hear them on the radio. Would they be acceptable under your reforms?
 
JUDITH          Well, I would have thought so. I think they’re very funny ads. Now, look, you might want to say I’m young, but I don’t think I’m that young. I think they’re fun, but it doesn’t make me want to go and buy their product.
 
SHANE           But they’re fun also to an 18-year-old as well.
 
JUDITH          How many 18-year-olds are sitting round watching our mainstream TV stations and getting their ads off them? Actually, the fact is it’s good marketing, um, but it’s not necessarily driving people to alcohol. But I’ve never drunk a Tui product. Having said that, I do enjoy their ads. I think they’re funny.
 
SHANE           So you don’t have a problem with alcohol ads on TV?
 
JUDITH          No, I don’t have a problem with alcohol ads on TV. My concern is the targeting and booze-drinking culture that we don’t want to see. When it comes to actually most people, they might be persuaded by one product over the other, but I know enough about teenagers to know they don’t sit around necessarily watching TV ads or watching the news.
 
SHANE           Would you like to see a health message, as an example, part of an alcohol advertisement?
 
JUDITH          Well, we could have that, and that would be something that the expert panel that we would set up to advise on advertising for alcohol, which is what we’re wanting to set up - they could look at that.
 
SHANE           Can I just ask you before we move on, the chief coroner a couple of years ago called for health warnings to be put on bottles of alcohol or to be put on alcohol, similar to what we currently do with tobacco. That was made a couple of years ago. Did anything happen with that?
 
JUDITH          I think there’s something working through with the food safety people at the moment on that, and there’s some work going on there with the Minister of Food Safety.
 
SHANE           Do you support that call?
 
JUDITH          Well, I think it’s not an unreasonable call. I just bear in mind that often these warnings can easily be overlooked because the person who’s pouring the drink isn’t necessarily the person who’s drinking the drink, if you know what I mean.
 
SHANE           I want to briefly touch on the age issue. Can you clarify your position?
 
JUDITH          Well, I personally support a split age.
 
SHANE           Because?
 
JUDITH          Well, I think that if we take it to 20, we are being unrealistic, particularly with so many students being 18, 19, and I think back to when I was that age. And we were, at that age, drinking in pubs when it was clearly outside the law. But we were in a controlled environment where we had people who wouldn’t serve alcohol to anyone who was intoxicated, and it was a much more safer environment than in the back seat of a car somewhere or down at the beach. Um, however, I also think that 20 is a good age for someone to be able to buy alcohol outside of that very controlled environment. And also 20-year-olds don’t normally associate with 16-year-olds. Plenty of 18-year-olds do associate with 16-year-olds, and it’s also about limiting the options or opportunities for supply of alcohol to people under the age of 18.
 
SHANE           Which way do you think it’s going to go?
 
JUDITH          I think it might go down the split age, actually, at the moment. But my view is whatever Parliament decides, I’ll work with. If it goes to 20, I’ll work with that. If it stays at 18, I’ll work with that. But my personal view is that split age has more appeal.
 
SHANE           Why do we have this as a conscience vote, given that 37 MPs earlier last month were undecided as to which way they were going to go? And surely the parties are better placed to adopt clear-cut positions and be held accountable for their decision?
 
JUDITH          It’s a strange but very good question, really, because Parliament has always had ages, on alcohol purchase age, as a conscience vote. There are certain things that Parliament has always done that way.
 
SHANE           Do you think that’s a good way?
 
JUDITH          Well, I think it might be more efficient to have at least a party vote on things, but I also know that it give people the opportunity to lobby their MPs, to ask them to change their mind or whatever. Um, I’ve always been very clear about my views on these sorts of things. I think a split age is far more defensible, and I think it’s far more reasonable and responsible. But plenty of others will disagree. They’re perfectly entitled to put their name to the vote and say what they think.
 
SHANE           On another matter, can I just confirm recent media reports that you’re not seeking damages in your defamation case against Trevor Mallard and Andrew Little?
 
JUDITH          Well, I don’t discuss my proceedings at all.
 
SHANE           Can you tell us why you won’t discuss them?
 
JUDITH          Because the matter’s before the court. It would be completely inappropriate for me to discuss matters before the court.
 
SHANE           You can’t tell us the motivation, at least, for the case?
 
JUDITH          No. I don’t discuss proceedings. No minister, no MP, should do so.
 
SHANE           Can I just ask this then - the Labour MPs are adamant that the case won’t make it to court. Are they right?
 
JUDITH          Well, I don’t discuss my proceedings. They’re before the court now.
 
SHANE           Thank you very much for your time.
 
JUDITH          Thanks, Shane.

ENDS