Q&A: Corin Dann interviews Prime Minister John Key
Sunday 14 April, 2013
Q+A: Political Editor
Corin Dann interviews Prime Minister John
Key
Prime Minister John Key has told
political editor Corin Dann that the report into the
Government Communications Security Bureau was ‘pretty
damning’.
Speaking on TVNZ’s Q+A programme, the
Prime Minister said that as the minister in charge of the
GCSB, he was entitled to expect that the organisation
operated within the law and there was no red flag until the
Kim Dotcom case.
The critical report into the GCSB
was leaked last week while Key was in China and showed that
at least 88 people may have been illegally spied on between
April 2003 and September last year.
The problem
stemmed from the interpretation of the rules governing the
GCSB.
Key rejected calls from opposition parties to
get rid of the GCSB.
"When the Greens start saying
they don't need this and they don't need SIS, they are in la
la land.
"We need to make sure that for national
security reasons this organisation operates."
He
said he is committed to restoring public confidence in the
organisation, and there will be legislative changes
made.
The Prime Minister also dismissed speculation
that he will not run for Prime Minister at the next
election.
"I've read lots of stuff in the media
that I'm not going to be there in 2014, I'm not going to run
National into the next election. It's not true. None of
that is true. I'll be there as long as National wants me
there. I'll be there in 2014. Why? Because I don't think
we've actually finished the job yet."
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Q
+ A
CORIN DANN INTERVIEWS JOHN
KEY
JOHN KEY – NZ Prime
Minister
Well, I think
that’s the, sort of, $64 million question or maybe the
1.35 billion question, given the number of people here.
I mean, what we know is we produce what they want to buy.
That’s the really good news part of the story.
Fundamentally, they want food, whether it’s ultimately
aquaculture or dairy, meat, it doesn’t really matter.
They want that food. They want the quality of that food.
They want the assurance that the food will be of a standard
that they expect. Secondly, they want to educate their
children, and they want to come and travel. And there are
specialist areas where it can be a niche in the Chinese
market, like, say, Rakon is to New Zealand, for instance.
But in this market, you know, a niche can be a very, very
big order for New Zealand, so there’s lots of
potential.
CORIN
Tim Groser – I heard him say on this trip New
Zealand’s trade to China – China could be our biggest
trade partner within two years at current growth levels.
What does that mean for New Zealand longer
term?
JOHN
Well, I think the good news part of the story is, I
mean, we’re here and we promote this relationship and the
trade aspects of this relationship because we genuinely
believe it means better jobs, it means more jobs, it means,
you know, greater opportunities for New Zealanders. I
mean, the challenge always for New Zealand, I think, is a)
making sure that we maintain our brand and quality, maintain
margin so we make money, and the second thing is we don’t
want to become solely China dependant. I mean, this is a
market that could at one level buy everything New Zealand
produces, but the reason we go to Latin America, as we did a
few weeks ago, or we sell to other markets and focus on them
is that in our history, we’ve been
solely—
CORIN
Because things can go wr ong. China could run
into trouble.
JOHN
Absolutely. Well, you go and have a look at the
United Kingdom. You go back to the, you know, 1970s before
they went into the European Common Market. We essentially
produced food for Britain.
CORIN Does it
create problems too being so aligned with China, given our
relationship with the United States? I mean, if our
economic interests are so interwoven with China in the
future, surely then our foreign policy, our whole thinking
as a country, starts to shift that way as
well.
JOHN
I don’t know if that’s entirely true. I mean,
we have a great relationship with the United States. I
mean, arguably, our relationship with them is in the best
shape it’s been for a very, very long time. They’re
also our third-largest market. They’ve gone past China,
but they’re a very big market. I mean, what New Zealand
should be trying to do and what the Government is trying to
do is make sure we have a diversified number of markets we
sell to. So to your point – I mean, you can’t rule out
that there is a problem one day in China, in their economy,
because economies go through those issues. We’ve had an
Asian financial crisis before. But what you’ve also got
to say is this is a wave of reform that this is one in a
generation, and we’re uniquely placed to ride that wave.
You pose the question really, about New Zealand and China,
but it’s interesting to look at the US-China
relationship. The US is also focusing itself far more
heavily in this market. You’ve got President Obama now
coming to the East Asian summit and APEC, you know, every
year. That’s a huge commitment for a US president, and
what that shows you is that, you know, I think there’s a
lot of people and a lot of countries that are starting to
say, ‘Well, if this is the growth—‘ This is the
engine for growth, and it’s, sort of, no longer Europe, as
it was, for instance, and even the United States starting to
come back with having issues. We have to be focused on
this set part of the world, otherwise we’re missing an
opportunity.
CORIN It does seem
like everyone wants a piece of China. They want to get in
on the growth. What about principles, though? What about
human rights?
JOHN
We may not always see eye to eye on every issue,
but the fact of having a closer trading relationship means
we’re more likely over time to understand each other a
little more, and, you know, there have been improvements in
human rights in China. I’m not arguing that they’re,
you know, absolutely perfect, for instance. I mean, there
will be more gains that they can make. But the
internationalisation of the world – you know, economic
evidence shows you that it’s likely to make the world a
safer place.
CORIN
The issue of farmland – you raised the issue of
farmland with China, said, ‘We’re not so interested in
you buying New Zealand’s farmland,’ but how can you stop
them?
JOHN
Well, I mean, if it got out of control for any
country – let’s not, you know, solely have that with
China – New Zealand always reserves the right to change
its law, so that’s the first thing. So we have rules
that any investor has to go through, whether they come from
Germany or—
CORIN
Did you hint to them at all that you might change
that law?
JOHN
No, what I said to them is, actually, the evidence
doesn’t support at the moment that there is enormous
holdings of— of foreigners holding rural land in New
Zealand. That’s the most recent data that we’ve
released. Now, what I have said to all of them, whether
it’s the president or the premier or the vice premier, as
we met today, as I’ve had in my public speeches, you know,
I’ve said there are areas of investment which we think are
win-win for both countries and make sense, and there are
areas that are more sensitive. And, I mean, in the end,
that’s the same consistent message we give around the
world.
CORIN What about
the United States? Do you tell them not to come and buy
our sensitive farmland? Because there’s plenty of
Americans who are
buying—
JOHN
Plenty of Americans who buy, absolutely. So again
the same thing – we have those discussions with, you know,
the New Zealand-US Partnership Forum, and we
encourage—
CORIN You would
actually tell Barack Obama in a bilateral meeting that,
‘We’d rather you not buy our
farmland’?
JOHN
Well, if we thought it was at a level where we
really believed that we needed to raise that, and I don’t
see that as being the big issue at the moment. But if it
was at that level, absolutely we’d have that discussion.
I mean, in the end, we’re a sovereign country who make the
rules of what we think is important to New Zealand. My
only real point around investment is, actually, we welcome
investment from other parts of the world, you know, as much
from China as we do from other places, because in the end,
we need that capital to grow the value of what we’re
producing and grow jobs. So if we’re mature enough to
understand that, then we should be brave enough to say we
would rather have that
directed.
CORIN
I mean, obviously, a big issue this week was the
GCSB, and it did in a way overshadow a bit of this trip.
It was disappointing for you?
JOHN
Yeah, I mean, look, in the
perfect world – if I was to live in the perfect world –
that report would have been released early next week. It
was our intention to have an intelligence committee meeting
on Tuesday night so we could do, I think, the decent thing
and try and make sure the Opposition parties could
understand the report first-hand before it went public and
on Wednesday hold a press conference and go through it. In
reality, it doesn’t change much. It just meant I had to
slightly change my schedule here, scramble a little bit and
didn’t necessarily have the report with
me—
CORIN
It’s a pretty damning
report.
JOHN
Yep, I think it is.
CORIN I mean, it
really is. It shows an organisation that looked well out
of its depth, particularly on the legal issues. How did it
get to that point? You were in charge of them for four
years. Why did it take so long for you to, sort of, work
that out?
JOHN
I think there’s two issues. One is GCSB prior
to the 2003 Act were always doing this sort of activity.
It may have increased a bit more over time, but they were
doing it. Helen Clark challenged when the law came in,
‘Are you sure we can actually do this?’ And the advice
she got was, ‘Yes, you can, and it’s consistent with
what we see operating around the world, and these agencies
work around the world.’ So I don’t think— what’s
now happened is that as part of the rewrite of the NZSIS
Act, essentially the Inspector General has started, you
know, earlier in July – I was aware in July – but
started raising questions about, ‘Well, how does this
actually work? I need to do some thinking about whether
this is actually really right.’ It’s still very
unresolved.
CORIN Did Helen
Clark give you any warning about this when she handed over?
JOHN No.
No.
CORIN You
had no idea that there was the potential for these
problems? Because we learned that, what, 88 people were
spied on. It could well have gone back before Helen
Clark’s time.
JOHN
It could’ve, yeah. See, the second thing is
that there was no red flag – nothing came along that said
said— and, in fact, as the report said as the minister,
I’m entitled to expect that operationally they operate
within the law, that they do their job. So there was no—
you know, the Dotcom case was a case where, you know, it
went wrong. They got it
wrong.
CORIN
Sure.
JOHN
But what it brought to the— it highlighted was
there’s an issue here. And so that
was—
CORIN But don’t
you still bear some
responsibility?
JOHN
Yeah, so I think the point you’d have to say is
a) as the report says, I’m entitled to rely on the
operational running and whether their compliance procedures
are right and all that sort of thing, I’m entitled to rely
on others.
CORIN And we
definitely still need this organisation?
JOHN Oh,
absolutely. I mean, when the Greens start saying they
don’t need this and they don’t need the NZSIS, they are
in la-la land. I mean, to be perfectly frank, we need to
make sure that for national security reasons this
organisation operates
professionally—
CORIN
But people’s confidence in this organisation has
been severely dented.
JOHN
Yeah, but my job is to
restore that, and all I can do is say when we’ve
undertaken what is, you’ve got to say by any definition, a
very thorough review, we’re now going to implement that
review. There’s been lots of changes already.
There’s been a significant beefing up of both the
compliance and the legal capability within GCSB, and there
will be legislative changes to make sure that we support
that.
CORIN It
has been a bruising time. It’s been a bruising saga.
You have come under serious personal attack, and your
integrity has been questioned extensively over the last few
weeks. How do you feel about that?
JOHN
Well, my point is this –
look, if you really take a step back, the modus operandi of
Labour and the Greens is to cast me as the villain, to call
me names, to run sort of hit-and-run
campaigns—
CORIN You have had
some memory losses which have exacerbated things at the very
least. They may have been innocent in your view, but they
have made a perception of something
sinister.
JOHN
Okay, but let’s put that in a bit of context.
If you take the situation where Ian Fletcher was appointed,
so, you know, we had significant media coverage and, you
know, a lot of very, very… highly critical claims being
made personally directed at me,
right?
CORIN But you did
not make it clear when you were asked that you had
shoulder-tapped Ian Fletcher.
JOHN
I was asked a specific
question in Parliament not with any warning, as a
supplementary question, didn’t even know it was coming, it
bore very little relation to the primary question at the end
of a parliamentary question session, and, actually, the
answer I gave was perfectly correct. Now, if the test is
I’ve got to give you absolutely all of the full
information – it comes back to the point I was making last
week – then I need to actually slow that process down so
that I can be— you know, I can meet the people’s
expectations—
CORIN
Did that episode get to you, though? I mean, you
only a couple of times in your whole time as Prime Minister
have you lashed out at the media. Were you genuinely
wounded by that?
JOHN
Well, firstly, it wasn’t
at all media, and secondly, the point is that my view was
that there wasn’t balance on the way that that was being
reported. I mean, you had the State Services Commissioner
coming out totally supporting what I was saying, and,
actually, that wasn’t always fully covered in that way.
My reputation matters to me because, you know, I am honest
and I am up front. I also am way more accessible than
virtually any other leader in the world, so if you want to
go and ask other leaders, you have a limited number of
questions, you have lots of warning what they’re going to
ask them about, they have lots of time to prepare
questions. I do two or three stand-ups a day, and I’m
asked questions about a huge number of issues.
CORIN Do you
still want to do this job?
JOHN
I
do.
CORIN Do you want
to carry on?
JOHN
Well, look, you know, the thing is I’m actually
enjoying it. As Prime Minister, what are they going to
remember when they look back? And the answer is going to
be is the economy strong, does the education system work
better, does health system work better, is New Zealand a
stronger, more confident country? I’ve been Prime
Minister for four and a half years. My own personal view
is that we are building that sort of New Zealand. Now, you
know, is there perfection? There will never be perfection
in politics, but you can do your very best and you can see
the course, and that’s what we’ve done. I really
believe passionately that— And again, I’ve read lots of
stuff in the media that I’m not going to be there in 2014,
I’m not going to run National in the election, that’s
not true. None of that is true. I’ll be there. As
long as National wants me there, I’ll be there in 2014.
Why? Because I don’t think we’ve actually finished the
job yet. And, you know, there will always be some weeks that
are better than others, but for the most part I’m in an
incredibly privileged position. You know, I’m the 38th
prime minister of New Zealand, and I’ll always be grateful
to the New Zealand public that they gave me that
chance.
CORIN Prime
Minister John Key, thank you very much.
JOHN
Thanks very
much.
ENDS