Q+A: Simon Bridges interviewed by Corin Dann
Q+A: Minister of Economic Development and Transport Simon Bridges interviewed by Corin Dann
Economic Development Minister Simon Bridges told TVNZ
1’s Q+A programme that he doesn’t accept National’s
record in the regions is patchy.
‘You look at the
regions right now, I’d say we’ve got real wind in our
sails. Absolutely. That’s not to say they are all as
strong as each other. They’ve all got their strengths and
their weaknesses. But actually, if you go through them,
there’s a dispersed growth – a strong growth.’
When asked whether the regions struggle to attract local
workers due to low wages, Minister Bridges told Corin Dann,
‘I think ultimately it's going to have to be a blend of
things. It’s going to need some foreign people coming in
and doing the jobs where they’ve got the skills.’
Minister Bridges also said, ‘I think the extent
Winston may be making gains – that’s off the back of
Labour, who are so weak... and I think missing in
action.’
As Minister of Transport, Simon Bridges
told Corin Dann allowing the regions to raise revenue in the
form of tolls or petrol levies would be too complex to
administer.
‘because if you do that in a particular
area – Phil Goff has talked about that in Auckland –
suddenly what you see is the petrol station down the road
that’s outside of that area has got all the cars and
trucks in it.’
When asked whether a review of
KiwiRail would mean fewer services or closed lines, Minister
Bridges said, ‘No, it doesn’t. But what it will mean, I
hope, is that transparently we will know, actually, here’s
where the freight is going. We really need to invest in
this. At the moment, we just don’t have sufficient
visibility about that. But in other cases, where there is a
line, maybe it isn’t making money, but we can understand
that, and we will know what it is we need to do.’
Minister Bridges stands by the business case for the
East-West road link in Auckland.
‘The benefit cost
ratio for east-west link is 1.9. And, look, let’s think
about that project. That is going into, not just in a
Auckland sense, a New Zealand sense, the most important
industrial hub we have.’
When asked about bringing
forward infrastructure projects ahead of the America’s
Cup, Minster Bridges said, ‘our Government’s position is
we are much more interested in the infrastructure components
of the America's Cup than we are in sponsorship of Team New
Zealand..
‘There are things like that that are possible.
All I will say to you is this – and that is for the
America's Cup, I don't think it's quite the tourism events
that, certainly, Rugby World Cups are. So I don’t
necessarily think the numbers will mean that it’s
necessary to do some of these things. But certainly I am
saying to you that infrastructure is important to us, and
for the America’s Cup, we’ll be looking very much at how
we can add value.’
Q +
A
Episode
1721
SIMON
BRIDGES
Interviewed by Corin
Dann
CORIN Thank you very much, Jess. Good morning to you, Minister Bridges. Thank you for joining us. Looking at the literature about your ethics to try and restore growth in the regions over the course of the last nine years – a lot of reports, a lot of rehashed reports, a lot of energy and effort, but the record is pretty patchy, isn’t it?
SIMON Look,
I don’t accept that. You look at the regions right now,
I’d say we’ve got real wind in our sails. Absolutely.
That’s not to say they are all as strong as each other.
They’ve all got their strengths and their weaknesses. But
actually, if you go through them, there’s a dispersed
growth – a strong growth. Many of them, Northland being
one of them, is telling us the best growth they’ve had in
20 years’ time.
CORIN But
still the unemployment rate is a lot higher than the rest of
the
country?
SIMON Yeah,
absolutely. So no one should suggest that it’s perfect or
that there aren’t things to do. That is why a couple of
weeks ago the Prime Minister announced $50 million going in
to dealing with some of those hard cases – actually pretty
small numbers, I think, because, look, even in Northland,
all around New Zealand, they are telling us clearly they
have jobs for skilled workers; they really want to see and
take on people. But what we have to do, in a number of
cases, is get those workers match
fit.
CORIN $50
million is not a lot for the regions, is
it?
SIMON Well,
look, it's not the only thing we are doing in the regions. I
can list out for you the roading projects, the ICT and so
on. But, look, in terms of
that—
CORIN But for regional growth, it’s not a lot of money. I mean, you gave $300 million to the film industry.
SIMON Yeah, and,
look, if you take that, people say, ‘That’s just
Wellington.’ No, actually, Bay of Plenty, Central Otago,
Southland. They have seen money going in to that. I’ll
come back to that $50 million that I was talking about,
though. What that will do, effectively, is go into these
areas, and all of them are telling us very clearly they need
more workers. They have very high employment. It will then
go and find those young people – because we can actually
find them – we will know them by names – and match them
up with those jobs and keep them in it. And, look, they may
have a drug issue, they may have other things going on, but
if that's their issue, we will put them in the programme,
and we’ll make sure we do
it.
CORIN That's
all very nice, but the fact is we heard the regions crying
out over the immigration changes. They couldn’t cope with
a wage of $49,000 at that bar for lower-skilled workers.
They wanted it at $41,000. It's clear they can’t attract
local workers, they need foreign workers, and they want to
pay them less. Something is
wrong.
SIMON I
think ultimately it's going to have to be a blend of things.
It’s going to need some foreign people coming in and doing
the jobs where they’ve got the skills. But we’ve also
got to do— That's why we are
spending—
CORIN At a low wage.
SIMON …which is why we’re
spending that $50 million on making sure that actually where
there are Kiwis who are not in employment, education,
training who could do the jobs, that we are really helping
them, nudging them into those jobs. And I think the
important thing, really, because this is the feedback we
get – keeping them in those jobs. So, actually, they’ve
got motivation
issues.
CORIN Winston
Peters, your competitor, arguably in the regions – Labour,
obviously, as well, but Winston’s been going very hard
there and making gains, by the look of it. He’s promising
to remove GST on tourism in the regions and give them $1.5
billion.
SIMON Look,
I think the extent Winston may be making gains – that’s
off the back of Labour, who are so weak.
CORIN You sure about that?
SIMON Absolutely, and I think missing in action. And I come back to it – what is the core case for National in the regions? I think it’s pretty simple, actually. We have regions all over New Zealand, literally almost to a region, that have got wind in their sails, that are going strongly, that are seeing a real adding in value in the things that they do and have done for some time, and actually a real diversification.
CORIN He’s got a
point, though, doesn’t he? He argues that many of these
regions are the export drivers of New Zealand. They are the
ones with horticulture and all sorts of industries –
farming. Yet they aren’t seeing the benefits spread. They
aren’t getting the benefits that the cities are
getting.
SIMON And
I simply don't accept that.
CORIN Why not? That’s a fact.
SIMON No, that’s
simply not a fact. Let’s go through
it.
CORIN Where
does the export growth of New Zealand come
from?
SIMON I agree
with you. Over 50% of our exports are from food,
effectively. Then you go through it, and there’s other
areas coming up very strongly, whether it’s ICT and
technology -- we keep going through that. My point is
you’re saying they are not getting the benefits. Let me
take you through the benefits. In transportation, we are
investing unprecedented amounts in regional New Zealand. You
take where he talks a lot, because, of course, now he’s a
Member of Parliament for Northland. Northland – we are
putting a highway from Auckland through, fundamentally, to
Whangarei – four-laning it. We started at one end. Winston
tries to pretend that isn’t happening, but it
is.
CORIN What he wants is a railway to
the
port.
SIMON And,
look, that's fine. Let’s see a business case for that.
Let’s see how that stacks up. But I think certainly on
that case, we wouldn’t want to do that if it was simply
transferring or taking carriages with thin
air.
CORIN One more
on this issue – there have been people who have suggested
that in fact we can't turn around the decline in some of our
regional towns and that maybe with an ageing demographic, we
just have to accept they are declining, and that’s just
the way it’s got to be. Do you accept
that?
SIMON No,
I don't. Let’s take an example they’ve used, and I’ve
seen some of those reports myself – Gisborne – They say,
‘Gisborne – the demographics aren’t right.’
Actually, the demographics are perfect. They have a young
Maori workforce that’s ready to go, in some cases. That's
why we put the $50 million in. That is one of our four focus
areas, because we know there's work. You mentioned it
yourself – horticulture is going gangbusters; viticulture
as well. Other areas – wood processing. The Government’s
helping them, through our regional growth programme, to do
much more in that area. So I think people always say,
‘Let’s pick these ones. These are the losers,’, just
like they like to pick winners. But what you see is whenever
they do that, they are wrong.
CORIN But
aren't you holding those regions back in some ways? Because
they are wanting to take control of their own destiny, in
many instances. They want to charge tolls, put petrol levies
in, and your
Government’s is not letting
them.
SIMON I think
in relation to the incidences you've used, where effectively
we’ll be playing around with the tax system, something
like that, I personally think that's too complex,
and we
are not a country of a size that we would want to entertain
that. But is there something in special economic zones? Is
there an idea there about fundamentally going in in a
bespoke way, working with particular regions? Look, I think
there possibly is.
CORIN So they could raise revenue?
SIMON Look, let’s take a number of examples. These are things we’re doing – aquaculture in Southland. There’s a number of issues—
CORIN Yeah, that’s fine.
That’s an economic zone. I get that. But they want to be
able to raise revenue themselves. Would you let
them?
SIMON I think
ultimately, as I say, for a country our size, that is too
complex.
CORIN Why
is it complicated to put a couple of cents on a litre of
petrol?
SIMON Look,
I think what is true is your fundamental idea of getting
some competition between regions, of making sure we look at
what their needs are and doing the right thing by
them.
CORIN Just
answer my question – why is it complicated to put in a
petrol
tax?
SIMON Ok, very
simply, actually, because if you do that in a particular
area – Phil Goff has talked about that in Auckland –
suddenly what you see is the petrol station down the road
that’s outside of that area has got all the cars and
trucks in it. And you shrug your shoulders, but I can tell
you, Corin—
CORIN Surely there’s ways around that.
SIMON What that means, and what the evidence shows is very seriously leakage of the revenue to other areas.
CORIN Sounds like your Government just doesn’t want to give up control.
SIMON I don’t think that’s true. I think through the regional growth programme, actually, you have seen us in a number of examples going into regions, let them do the leading and us come up with some ways that we can enable it. I’ll give you an example – the West Coast – where we have put in a minerals and materials centre in there. We’ve announced that very recently. That is all about helping them – we know they have a strong mineral sector – diversify that, move on in the future.
CORIN Helping the mining industry, isn’t it?
SIMON No, no. Actually,
look, it’s about things like, in that instance, taking the
waste they’ve got and finding high-value uses for it. And
I think most people would agree with
that.
CORIN All
right, let’s move to transport – your Government has
pumped billions of dollars into the KiwiRail over the last
few years. Billions. Billions and billions of dollars. Why
are you now reviewing it
again?
SIMON Basically,
because you’re right. I think rail’s got very strong
strengths and works really well for freight over distance.
CORIN But why isn’t it fixed if
you’ve put all these billions of dollars in? Why do we
need to review
that?
SIMON Well, I
think in a sense, that answers the question. Let me be quite
straightforward with you why we are reviewing the funding
model. And that’s simply because above track, I think it
does wash its face. I think KiwiRail has found real
efficiencies and productivity gains in their business there.
Below rail, though, look, it doesn’t.
CORIN You mean it requires infrastructure? You’re just pouring money into that?
SIMON Exactly. And, look, at one
level, you say, ‘Well, what’s wrong with that? But I
think what we owe it to KiwiRail to do, what we owe it to
the Government and New Zealanders to do look if we can’t
find a more transparent, sustainable
model.
CORIN Let’s
get to the crux here. Is that going to mean fewer services,
closed
lines?
SIMON No, it
doesn’t. But what it will mean, I hope, is that
transparently we will know, actually, here’s where the
freight is going. We really need to invest in this. At the
moment, we just don’t have sufficient visibility about
that. But in other cases, where there is a line, maybe it
isn’t making money, but we can understand that, and we
will know what it is we need to do.
CORIN Would you close those lines?
SIMON No, I’m not making any—
CORIN Well, what’s the point in doing the review?
SIMON Because at the
moment, I think KiwiRail is in a position where they don't
necessarily know year from year what they are getting from
the Government. It is quite ad hoc. And the Government’s
also in that position. So I wouldn’t overstate what this
review is about, simply to say that I think it is right that
we go back and we look through all this calmly and
dispassionately and try to find a transparent, sustainable
model.
CORIN There
will be people worried because your government doesn't seem
to have a lot of enthusiasm for rail over the years. Let’s
take this example of the third rail line in Auckland. You
didn't want to release the details of that plan. The
unredacted version has been released. It looks like a good
idea. Why were you trying to suppress
it?
SIMON Come
on, let’s be a little bit real about this. This is a
business case that I commissioned because I absolutely see
the case for this in the bigger
picture.
CORIN So
why much effort not to let it go
public?
SIMON If I
can just get a sense of that – that’s because
fundamentally, because of the electrification the National
Government has funded, we’ve seen many more commuters use
those rail lines that used to be for freight. So I see the
case for it. But look, as the Greens and others would say,
you need a serious business case. We want all the details on
the roading projects. We also need to go through some
process on these other ones. And so that is all I've been
seeking to do on this third main rail
line.
CORIN It looks like you didn’t
want it out there because it might weaken the case for your
east-west
link.
SIMON No, I
mean, it’s simply not related. East-west link has a very
strong benefit cost ratio. It has been put through the
wringer.
CORIN Does
it really have a cost ratio? Because Simon Wilson sitting
over there – he’s done some work on The Spinoff, and he
would argue that in fact the New Zealand transport authority
has put a report saying there isn't an up to date
one.
SIMON Look,
Simon has very trenchant views on this.
CORIN No, no, no, no, no. It’s not
about Simon. This is the New Zealand Transport Authority
report which says there is no up to date cost benefit for
that
link.
SIMON No, no.
There is. It’s 1.9. I’ve said that on a number of
occasions. I have never been shown to be wrong, and that is
because I’m not. The benefit cost ratio for east-west link
is 1.9. And, look, let’s think about that project. That is
going into, not just in a Auckland sense, a New Zealand
sense, the most important industrial hub we have. It is
deeply congested, it doesn't work for public transport, and
we want to fundamentally improve
it.
CORIN I guess
the question is, is it the best use of $2 billion in
Auckland? Is it going to get the most trucks off the road?
Is it going to make the transport system the
best?
SIMON Look,
it’s not a silver bullet. Waterview Tunnel wasn't a silver
bullet. But what we have seen is that it had a very deep
impact right at the moment, and commuters are feeling that.
But is it an important project? Is it one of the three
long-term priorities for the region for a very long time?
Yes. Is it something that business absolutely--
CORIN Phil Goff
doesn’t think it’s a priority.
SIMON Well, look, I’d be surprised to hear that, actually.
CORIN Well, he’s
quoted again in The Spinoff saying it’s not one of their
top
priorities.
SIMON Well,
that’s in a sense, perhaps, because it’s banked. But I
tell you what – you go back through all of the regional
land transport plans for the last 30 years – it has been
there as a very important project. I can tell you the ABF
business forum, the Chamber of Commerce, the EMA – they
all see it as a top priority. And I come back to it – the
benefit cost ratio well and truly does stack up. But it’s
not a silver bullet, and I agree with you fundamentally –
when it comes to rail, more electrification, third main line
– some of these other
projects…
CORIN It's
taken your government a lot of time to get there, though,
hasn’t it? You’ve dragged your feet all the way.
SIMON No, Corin,
because, in fact, as you said, we have invested more than
any other government ever in rail at the moment, with the
last billion dollars from this
budget—
CORIN I
guess the point is you stand in Parliament and call your
critics haters of roads. And it looks like you’ve been
dragging your feet, and you’re not really that
enthusiastic at all about
rail.
SIMON I think
it’s a range or projects that matter, actually. Because
you’re speaking about Auckland, I am more confident,
actually, about Auckland and what we are doing for transport
here than I’ve ever been. That is kind of because of
Waterview, and we’ve seen what a palpable effect that has
been.
CORIN On this
issue – just quickly before we go – the America's Cup,
APEC in three or four years’ time. Can you bring forward
any Auckland infrastructure projects to meet that extra
pressure? I’m thinking obviously the rail link out to the
airport.
SIMON Because you
mentioned the mayor – look, I had a fantastic meeting with
him on Friday. We discussed all these things. In terms of
transport, we are very close together in terms of what we
are trying to do. We talked about the America's Cup. I
think, without speaking for him, certainly our
Government’s position is we are much more interested in
the infrastructure components of the America's Cup than we
are in sponsorship of Team New Zealand, so we do have
interest in doing things
there.
CORIN Could
you bring forward those projects? Specifically that rail
project out to the
airport?
SIMON There
are things like that that are possible. All I will say to
you is this – and that is for the America's Cup, I don't
think it's quite the tourism events that, certainly, Rugby
World Cups are. So I don’t necessarily think the numbers
will mean that it’s necessary to do some of these things.
But certainly I am saying to you that infrastructure is
important to us, and for the America’s Cup, we’ll be
looking very much at how we can add
value.
CORIN The
rail link to the airport – could that be brought
forward?
SIMON Well,
of course it could, but again – I’m not trying to be
cute here – it has to- just with all of these projects, be
weighed up against the other projects, such as north-west
busway such as AMETI these other things. Right at the
moment, we are going through an ATAP refresher. We are
refreshing our processes with Auckland. In the next few
weeks, I think we’ll have a lot more clarity about that.
CORIN Simon
Bridges, thank you very much for your time. Appreciate
it.
SIMON Thank you.
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