Sunday 2 June, 2013
 
Susan Wood interviews Len Brown
 
Len Brown Says Government Law Change Not a Good Move
 
Auckland Mayor Len Brown is not impressed by the Government’s plan to legislate change if there is no agreement on housing with Auckland or any other local authority.
 
“I do not think that’s a good move,” Mr Brown told TVNZ’s Q+A programme today.
 
The proposed Auckland Housing Accord was about “central and local government working closely together” to address affordability and availability of housing, and speeding up construction.
 
“This is the way we should go forward,” he said.
 
Mr Brown also did not rule out delaying the notification of the city’s Unitary Plan until after the local body elections.
 
“We will make some judgement calls as to whether or not we believe the draft plan is in fact ready for notification,” he said, not because it would be better for his election chances, but because “I genuinely want to ensure that this plan is in place and in a good space with our community and we’ve got as many of our community on board as possible.”
 
In the meantime, the Council is reviewing feedback over the next couple of months, and will make some changes made to proposed height limits, particularly in coastal towns.
 
“My leadership will be that we need to moderate some of our positions,” he said. “But not to compromise the over-arching desire for us to build a little up and a little out.”
 
Q+A, 9-10am Sundays on TV ONE and one hour later on TV ONE plus 1. Repeated Sunday evening at 11:30pm. Streamed live at www.tvnz.co.nz.   
 
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Q + A – 2 June, 2013
 
LEN BROWN
Auckland Mayor
 
Interviewed by SUSAN WOOD
 
LEN                               Oh, for a start, it’s been brilliant engagement, and we’ve loved that, and so the engagement that we’ve had– Over 10,000 people. We expect 15,000 people by the end of the process who will have given us formal feedback. So we’ll spend six weeks, eight weeks in total really going through intensively all the feedback and make the changes we think are appropriate from the feedback; focus on the areas where we think we’re probably reaching and also continue our assessment of things like population projections, you know, as we’re looking out 30 years and dealing in managing with that population growth that our city has.
 
SUSAN                         We’ll talk about some of the changes to the plan in a moment. First, though, are you surprised at the fear and the level of anger that this plan has provoked?
 
LEN                               Oh, look, in some parts of town, absolutely. We’ve seen a high level of emotion in some parts, but for most of the meetings— I’ve been at a lot of the meetings. We’ve had over 200 public meetings. Brilliant. Most of the meetings I’ve been at – very constructive. Thoughtful, considered, and if they don’t like parts of the plan, they’ve been very clear on how they think we ought to change it or mend it. But the overarching view is of quality compact city Auckland, not urban sprawl LA, but something a bit up and a bit out – by and large, overwhelming support for that general focus, and that’s how I think we will go forward and be able to finalise the plan.
 
SUSAN                         How much of the opposition do you believe is politically motivated by your opponents on the centre-right?
 
LEN                               I’m not overly angsted about that. You know, I—
 
SUSAN                         But they are against you. They’re saying rethink the plan or rethink the council.
 
LEN                               Yeah, well, of course it’s time for election, and so you're going to get some of that. The whole issue of bringing the city together and putting in place a supercity structure, a vision, the special plan, first 10-year budget and then the rules in the Unitary Plan – it’s been a big, big ask, and we’ve had to do it, by and large, over the first three years. And so, look, I expect—
 
SUSAN                         Sure. There are those, though, who say you haven’t actually brought the city together; you’ve divided them. It’s rich against poor; it’s young against old. There's plenty of people saying that.
 
LEN                               Oh, look, most people, by and large, are engaged in this process and want to see the Unitary Plan in place, get that single set of rules as against presently seven sets of rules and six regional plans, so everyone understands we need to get this job done, but what we are saying is that we’re listening to the feedback. We think there's an overall consensus around the way to go forward, but we will need to make some changes around some of the aspects of the plan thus far.
 
SUSAN                         Right. And one of the big areas where there's been so much contention – height, up. How will you change that?
 
LEN                               Certainly, and in particular the coastal areas – the coastal townships – we’ll be looking at that, and that’ll be one of the first issues that we deal with. I mean, we’ve had some interesting feedback from some of the communities as to how a more moderate position might apply, so we’re listening to that. But it’s been also interesting— You know, we know that in terms of population densities in Auckland now and going forward into the future— So we’ve seen increasing densities in some of our main townships, whether they’re Newmarket or whether they’re—
 
SUSAN                         Sure, but are you going to limit the heights? I mean, people are very worried about having four storeys next to them, for example.
 
LEN                               Yeah, and we will be reviewing that.
 
SUSAN                         So you’ll be bringing that back? That’ll be something that you’re looking at?
 
LEN                               Susan, I don’t want to get into the details of it. Just my leadership will be that we need to moderate some of our positions, and in particular the coastal towns, and I made that clear a month ago. I felt it was important that we give an indication that we would be working on that, because I think some reasonably good cases have been made around the fact that we should be, for example, at a lower level fronting onto our coastal communities, and then maybe slightly higher levels in city centres and township centres. So, you know, we will be looking to some moderation, but not to compromise the overarching desire for us to build a little up and a little out.
 
SUSAN                         One of the other ones that I think there's been a good argument put for — is infrastructure, and I’ll give you one example: Belmont on Auckland’s North Shore. One road in; one road out. It’s bad enough as it is. Are you looking at those sort of things?
 
LEN                               Oh yes, and I think that, you know, a lot of the answers to that sort of work aren’t necessarily sitting in the Unitary Plan. They were done 18 months ago with the Auckland Spatial Plan, where in beside the Auckland Spatial Plan, there are some very clear indications as to how many kilometres of waste-water, storm-water, water infrastructure, the roading and public transportation network that we need to put in place to manage and deal with the growth of Auckland over the next 30 years. One of the reasons why we don’t want our city bursting out in an LA-style sprawl is it’s hugely expensive to run storm-water and waste-water to that type of civic model. And also transportation – you can't sustain public transport unless you have reasonable population densities, and so everyone recognises that we now need to invest seriously in mass transit. If we have urban sprawl Auckland, you can't do it. It won't be sustainable.
 
SUSAN                         I want to talk to you about trust, because this is a massive document. We had it in the studio when it came out. Very few people are going to read the whole thing. So to some extent, there has to be trust between you and the people of Auckland, and that trust was seriously eroded when it turned out it wasn’t two storeys for nearly half of Auckland but three storeys. Was that a deliberate deception?
 
LEN                               No, I think that there has been some really interesting interpretations in terms of that two-, three-storey issue. We will look specifically at that issue as one of our key focuses, and we will make some decisions around whether or not that type of mixed-housing use – which is what you're talking about: the mixed-housing-use zone – whether the height limit there will be if you go to three storeys; whether or not it’d be notified, non-notified; if it’s notified whether it’s limited notified.
 
SUSAN                         So it is three storeys. It is three storeys. I mean, you’ve sort of fudged that answer to me a minute ago. It really is three storeys when it’s 10m, isn’t it? Or it certainly can be.
 
LEN                               Yeah, but it does get back to— Look, there has been a lot of three-storey housing development within our community already. What—
 
SUSAN                         But another 2m does make a difference if it’s in front of you or beside you.
 
LEN                               What the primary concern was, and if you're reflecting on some of the submissions that we had, for example, from 2040, a group that has been established to, you know, better advocate on behalf of the community—
 
SUSAN                         Have they been established just to discredit you, do you think? Because they do represent the centre-right.
 
LEN                               No, no, again, oversimplification. What they—
 
SUSAN                         But they don’t like your policies, do they?
 
LEN                               There is a high level of agreement, actually. There is an agreement around intensification, there's an agreement around quality compact city, there—
 
SUSAN                         So are they just scaremongering with some of the things they’re saying, then?
 
LEN                               No. What they have been saying is that for example we want to see a greater level of certainty in terms of those mixed-housing zones. Would there be a resource consent if you wanted to go from two to three storeys? So, you know, there's— The detail is something we’ve got to work through and we will make some  changes to that.
 
SUSAN                         Housing Minister Nick Smith and you were on the programme in March, and at the time, there was mention— Nick Smith said there was a constructive tension between central and local government. So two months on, is it more constructive or more tense?
 
LEN                               Oh, no, I think it’s much more constructive. There was an element of, you know, arguing the vision for Auckland with myself as the mayor and with Aucklanders, who by and large agreed that vision through the Auckland plan. And we got over that, and so we are—
 
SUSAN                         So you’re working well with central government?
 
LEN                               Yeah, absolutely. So we are in agreement that it’s about building a quality compact city. You build up and you build out. And so the Auckland Housing Accord is very much— The proposed Auckland Housing Accord is very much about us as central and local government working closely together to, one, really deal with the issue of affordable housing in Auckland, the issue of available housing in Auckland and get the housing bill going much faster in both our established urban areas and also in our greenfield areas. So there's been some very good constructive work done over the last two or three months, and I’m pleased to see it, and this is the way we should go forward.
 
SUSAN                         Alright—
 
LEN                               But I will say, I will say that the government has also indicated in its latest legislation that if there is no housing accord, either with Auckland or any other part of New Zealand local government, then they may act to implement change where they see it as appropriate. I do not think that’s a good move. I think that it’s important for central and local government, under the accords that we now have, to actually collaborate, and I think that’s the way for us to go forward.
 
SUSAN                         This plan will be notified at about the time you want to be re-elected. How’s it going to impact on your chances?
 
LEN                               Oh, look, I think that’s a presumption for a start. Over the last two or three months—
 
SUSAN                         Well, no, there's no presumption. It’s going to be notified about the same time as the election.
 
LEN                               No, no, that decision has not been formally made.
 
SUSAN                         Are you going to put it off until after the election?
 
LEN                               We are going to go through a process over the next, as I say, two, three months where we will make some judgement calls as to whether or not we believe the draft plan is in fact ready for notification. Now, our hope—
 
SUSAN                         Is it possible you’ll push it off till after the election?
 
LEN                               Yeah, it is possible.
 
SUSAN                         Would that be better for your election chances?
 
LEN                               Look, to tell you the truth, I’m not contemplating that. I’m looking at what's best for Auckland.
 
SUSAN                         Of course you are. You're a politician.
 
LEN                               I am the mayor of this city, and I’m genuinely…
 
SUSAN                         And you want to continue being mayor of this city, don’t you?
 
LEN                               …wanting to ensure— I genuinely want to ensure that this plan is in place and in a good space with our community, and we’ve got as many of our community on board as possible in terms of how we go forward, and that is my primary focus.
 
SUSAN                         Very good. Nice to talk to you this morning.
 
LEN                               Thank you, Susan.

ENDS

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