Sunday 17th April, 2011

Q+A’s Panel Discussions.

The full length video interviews and panel discussions from this morning’s Q+A can also be seen on tvnz.co.nz at, http://tvnz.co.nz/q-and-a-news

Q+A is broadcast live on TV ONE between 9-10am on Sunday mornings and repeated on TVNZ 7 at 9.10pm on Sunday nights and 10.10am and 2.10pm on Mondays.

Declaration:
* Today’s female panellist, Joan Withers is on the TVNZ Board and currently holds the position of Deputy Chair.

PANEL DISCUSSIONS hosted by PAUL HOLMES

In response to STEVEN JOYCE interview

PAUL Time to welcome the panel. Dr Jon Johansson. And we also have with us this morning Joan Withers, an experienced executive director and trustee of a wide range of business and not-for-profit organisations. She’s the chair of Mighty River Power, deputy chair of TVNZ and she’s on the board of the Tindall Foundation to name a few of them, so thank you for coming in. And also with us is David Do, co-president of the New Zealand Union of Students Association. So, from what we gather from what Steven Joyce was saying, it looks as if he’s targeting overseas students particularly, or ex-students, who owe the $2 billion and are a little bit slow with the paying back of the debt. Here’s what he had to say.

STEVEN JOYCE: Oh, I’m concerned about that. I think it sends the wrong message that somebody can sit overseas for three years and not make any commitment at all towards repayment.

PAUL So he’s toughening up on the overseas students, Jon Johansen.

JON JOHANSSON – Political Analyst
Yeah, and I mean I don’t think New Zealanders are going to have any qualms about trying to recover that money.

PAUL I mean, even if over four or five years, you got a couple of billion back, that helps us with Christchurch, doesn’t it?

JOAN WITHERS* – Company Director
Yeah, I think the thing is the fundamental principle is staying in tact, and I think what they’re doing to tidy up around the edges – so making sure there are academic criteria and that people can’t continue to fail in their courses and continue to borrow, and making sure that they don’t forgive these loans – means there is some fairness and equity in it.

DAVID DO – National Student President
We have to remember also... I mean, we don’t object particularly to what he’s pursuing, but the context, of course, is a lot of people have been pulled away, not just by higher wages, but they were pushed overseas because of their student debt, so we’ve lost a lot of out best and brightest because of the student debt. We’ve lost their education, their potential contribution...

PAUL So we’re damned if we do, damned if we don’t. Is that what you mean?

DAVID Well, we just have to remember the broader context and why this happened in the first place.

PAUL Is what you’re saying in giving interest-free student loans, allowing people to accumulate debt, we’ve pushed them offshore. Is that what you’re saying?

DAVID Well, students are forced to pay higher fees than ever before. They can’t get proper support while they’re studying. So when they graduate, how else are they going to get rid of their huge student debt before they start their adult lives?

PAUL Given wages are better overseas, you mean?

JON And David will know this as well is that, you know, you talk to a lot of students, and particularly the ones that have left, and they put their student loan issues in a box in their head that they firmly shut the door to. Like, you know, I’ve talked to many, many students over the years: “So, what’s the level of your student loan?” “Sorry, don’t open that door. It’s just a number.”

PAUL What are you saying?

JON And so what I’m saying is that even when you tinker with it, as the Minister is doing here, I don’t think it shifts the thinking of the people that are being targeted here. They are not going to change their behaviour, I think, I as a result of anything that we heard this morning.

DAVID Yeah, and I think Paul Callahan’s call to get overseas loan borrowers to pay their loans back has brought out some of that, I guess, resentment that some people have. The generation who’s in power now who got free education, got jobs when times were good are happy to see the next generation build up a huge debt and expect them to just pay more.

JON And it is a strong feeling. David’s right – there’s a very strong feeling of resentment.

PAUL Yes, I hear this, but at the same time, I don’t remember rolling in money as a student. I was flat broke.

JOAN And the whole point is it’s giving these kids access to education. If they go offshore, at some stage many of them will decide they want to come back and live in New Zealand. And I think the most important thing is these loans are never forgiven, so that the kids who do, you know, beaver away and pay their loans back don’t feel at any stage there’s any lack of equity.

JON That policy is also, like, to me it’s also had a profound effect on women, particularly, because I think with women already deciding to make decisions about having children and that later, the student loan policy has, in effect, further complicated those decisions, because you have this big number over your head. And you talk to young politicians, and if there’s a real division amongst different generations of politicians, they will tell you, “We are the first generation” – this is the under-40s – “who had to pay a student loan.” And their mental universe is different from the generation ahead of them who did not.

DAVID And that’s why interest-free student loans came about in the first place. There was a huge concern in the community about the effect billions of dollars of student debt was having on people who’d start a family, buy a house, save for the future, whether they go overseas or not. That’s why this policy was created. Plenty of loan-holders, they couldn’t pay off their loan, couldn’t get to the principle because the interest was so much. Now the interest is gone, people are getting debt-free faster. They’re paying off their loans. They’re able to get on with their lives. So it is positive the government is still sticking to this policy, but parents, grandparents and students overwhelmingly support it. Two elections have been fought on it. It’s an untouchable policy.

PAUL I suppose the other problem, really, with interest-free student loans is given the billions of dollars now out there – $11 billion now owed, of which we’re only getting, what, 57c at the moment. He wants to get it over 60. If you multiply the amount that’s owed by the time it takes to pay it back interest-free, all we get back is about 57c, at the moment, on every dollar owed. We’re borrowing 300 a week to stay alive. We have Christchurch to rebuild. Can we afford this? Is this one of the things that really just nice to have?

JOAN Having unfettered access to tertiary education is critically important, and, you know, I live and operate in South Auckland, so the thought of many of these kids wouldn’t be able to access tertiary education if they didn’t have the ability to go out and get a student loan and manage that debt, and that has to be part of it. They have to understand that they liability is still going to be there. And if you look at what the government are planning...

PAUL Well, do they understand that? That is the thing.

JOAN Well, look, my niece has just qualified as a lawyer. She’s come out, her mother estimates, with somewhere between $50,000 and $60,000. She’s got a job in a legal practice in Auckland. She knows it’s – you know, different from some others – she knows that that liability is sitting there, and she takes that responsibility very seriously. So she’s one of the ones who actually says, “Yes, this is worth doing. I understand the responsibility. I now have to repay this debt.”

PAUL But do some not accept that responsibility?

JOAN Oh, inevitably.

PAUL Do some not accept that contract?

JON Indeed they do, but also, if you talk about the big number, Paul, of the $11 billion, I would rather, you know, our liability to be around a policy domain that is really about future-proofing our economy rather than, you know, an equivalent on something as absolutely futile in waste as leaky homes. You know what I mean? I mean, the...

PAUL Yeah, so it seems like a cost. In fact, it’s an investment.

JOAN Yes, exactly.

JON There’s a public good, although the Minister – you know, that was a fiscal conversation, right. That wasn’t a conversation about tertiary policy. And given that Steven Joyce is the second minister already in that portfolio this term, and players inside that industry have no expectation that Joyce will be their minister after the election, you wonder whether this government actually does have a vision beyond the fiscal when it comes to tertiary policy.

PAUL Is the government hurt by the MediaWorks business? The accommodation the government made for MediaWorks?

JOAN Director of TVNZ, so it’s inappropriate for me to comment.

PAUL Well, you comment.

JON Uh, OK, well...

PAUL Because, you know, he’s linked to MediaWorks.

JON Yeah, the 10 thing – I thought the analogy was actually really poor. The difference between...

PAUL The Annette being a dental nurse. (chuckles)

JON ...Annette King and Trevor Mallard is that they were very very small fish in a very large pond. He was the creator of this, and I would have thought that the cleanest pair of hands would have seen no Steven Joyce involvement at any step of this. He shouldn’t have been involved in it at all. And, you know, as more facts are emerging about the actual handling of this, it is really not a good look. Is it damaging on its own? No, but it’s just another little chip.

PAUL Mm, another brick in the wall.

JON Yep.

*****

In response to JENNY SHIPLEY interview

PAUL Lots of concern coming in... Lots of concern on the feedback, you know, about the selling of land, and I suppose particularly to Chinese people – big Chinese companies. Anne asks, “Why must we sell land to foreign interests? Why not just lease it?” Who wants to start us on this?

JON Well, because we’re a country that doesn’t have a lot of choices and throughout its history has had to rely on foreign investment of one type or another. With the Chinese, there a race component to it, and there’s no denying that, because that’s also been a long part of our history. You don’t see much fuss about the Harvard Endowment Fund buying up farms, do we? It focuses very much around Chinese ownership.

PAUL Is it xenophobic, David?

DAVID I think one of the worries that we need to keep in mind is that, you’re right, Chinese have been part of New Zealand society for a long time. I mean, my dad was from Vietnam and my mum was from China. They met here and I’ve grown up here. I was born here. So I’m always worried when people are so much more concerned about Chinese companies owning land versus American or British or Australian companies, who own a lot of our economy now. We’re part of society now.

PAUL It is racist.

JOAN Well, to an extent, it must be, and I guess there’s also the issue where there doesn’t seem to be the same commentary, as Fran O’Sullivan pointed out in an article a couple of weeks ago, when you get groups like Haier buying into Fisher & Paykel Appliances. So it’s not US-based companies that are rescuing New Zealand businesses now. More and more frequently, it’s Chinese businesses. And Dame Jenny is absolutely right – we have a reorient ourselves as a nation.

PAUL We’ve got to get over it.

JOAN We absolutely have to get over it, and one of my roles is chair of Auckland Airport, and the tourism growth coming out of China is phenomenal. There was a Goldman Sachs report that came out late last year that said there will be one billion Chinese flying by the year 2022. Now, New Zealand gets between 7% and 10% of its GDP through tourism, so we’ve seen in the last couple of months the announcement that China Southern Airlines, which is the fourth-largest airline in the world, is now going to be coming into Auckland. It started last Saturday. Fantastic New Zealand Inc story where we had the Prime Minister meeting the chairman and the vice-president and the dignitaries at the door of the aircraft, and in the same visit... You know, we’ve cleared up all the stupid visa issues we had. In the same trip, these guys announced, “We’re not going to come three times a week. From October we’ll be coming daily.” So that is hugely material to the New Zealand economy, but we’ve got to learn how to look after those visitors when they get here.

JON Yeah, and it’s more than just clipping the ticket for brief transitory stays as well. It’s, like, if we’re going to develop... meet this challenge of the rising Asian middle classes, we have to really deepen those links, and how prepared are our businesses not just to exploit it for their next balance sheet, but over the next generation.

PAUL We have to get over it, and if we don’t, we’re going to be wearing jandals is what she’s saying. You know, we’ve got to form partnerships.

JON And the Chinese have a different perception of time than we do, you know.

PAUL Is there a...? Yes, that’s right.

JON Deep roots. Deep roots.

PAUL When Zhou Enlai was asked was the French revolution a good or a bad thing, he said it’s too early to say.

JOAN But every one of them is delivering when they visit between $2500 and $3000 to New Zealand economy.

PAUL That’s right. See, and here’s a hypocrisy of it: we’re quite happy to take their money

JOAN Absolutely.

PAUL But we don’t want them to buy the farm.

JON Well, the other thing is, remember that we have 9% of Kiwis are now Asian-Kiwis. And we should be looking within our own community of Asian-Kiwis to how we can broaden those links with those communities as well.

PAUL The Global Women’s Network and the leadership programme – are you part of that?

JOAN Yes, I am.

PAUL It’s fascinating.

JOAN Yeah, and it’s much needed. It’s not the only answer, though, and I reflect an awful lot... You know, I’m sort of long enough in the tooth now. I’ve been in business for a long time, and the stats really haven’t improved that much. Some of it, I think, is the fact that I had my son on my 21st birthday. Women are now having their babies later on, so you have got that, you know, issue with the domestic constraints.

PAUL Well, I think what McKinsey are trying to say is we’re simply going to have to ch... you know, go to flexible. We have to accept that women are going to take a break, but it shouldn’t impede careers.

JOAN But I think the other point that you made and Dame Jenny made is women need to promote themselves. We need to give them confidence. When Pansy Wong was Minister of Women’s Affairs, a number of us went around some of the leading recruitment agencies, and they said universally, the guys will, you know, send their CV in if they’ve been... You know, at a middle-management level, they’ll say, “Look, I’m thinking about retiring. Put my name forward for a board.” Women almost never do that. So we’ve got to be smarter about identifying these women and giving them the confidence that they actually can do the jobs, and then as chairs of companies, we’ve got to be saying, “Well, OK, who are the best people for this role?” Quotas are a bad idea, I think, because then you get the view that any woman sitting around a table...

PAUL Is a token.

JOAN ...is sitting there as a token, so I totally disagree with that, absolutely.

JON We need willing assent rather than regulatory coercion.

PAUL But isn’t that fascinating, the effect? I think McKinsey say that the critical mass of the gender mix on a board – if a board was, say, 10 people, you’ve got to get at least three women on for it to make a difference.

JOAN And the Crown have done a stunning job, as Dame Jenny said. I mean, you know, most of the Crown boards have got close to 50/50 representation with women, so they are working very hard to identify these women, but that’s what we’ve got to do and just.. You know, Dame Jenny’s heading up Global Women. It’s initiatives like that that really will start to make a difference.

JON And I think, Joan, you know… With Joan, Jenny and numerous women of that first generation that broke that glass ceiling, their mentorship of that next wave is absolutely crucial to achieve that critical mass, as everybody is saying here this morning. But, you know, you do wonder, in the world of politics at least, if you look at that first cut of females that broke the glass ceiling – the Thatchers, the Clarks, the Hillary Clintons – you know, they did so by, you know, in many respects replicating some of the more brutish behaviour of we men. And it’s actually...

PAUL That’s right. They had to learn the male codes.

JON That’s right. So it’s actually the subsequent waves.

ends

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