Sunday 12th June, 2011

Q+A interview with Foreign Affairs Minister, Murray McCully.

Points of interest:
- NZ government grants Col. Tevita Mara exemption from Fiji travel ban for two days of meetings
- Mara’s history of abuse and leadership of the regime “is a good reason for not immediately giving him pin-up boy status”
- “Yes, we are trying to encourage people to part company with the regime… and reward them when they do that”
- MFAT officials to meet Mara and hear “serious” allegations, not ministers
- Foreign Minister says Zimbabwe cricket team given exemption to enter New Zealand, but players linked to Mugabe regime or military will remained barred, as per Fiji
- McCully: “Potential for things to become more serious” between Fiji and Tonga , so urges them to follow international disputes procedure
- New Zealand playing “a careful hand”, keen not to stoke tensions between Fiji and Tonga and within Fiji
- Mara defection “creates a whole new dynamic”
- Tensions between the powerful Mara family and chiefs will put pressure on regime, McCully thinks
- Bainimarama must lift emergency regulations, allow other politicians to stand and parties to exist before 2014 elections can be free and fair
- Rugby World Cup “an opportunity” to leverage Fiji and offer election support
- New Zealand taking “a close interest” in status of Anthony Fullman; confirms he’s not being detained in Fiji

The interview has been transcribed below. The full length video interviews and panel discussions from this morning’s Q+A can be watched on tvnz.co.nz at, http://tvnz.co.nz/q-and-a-news

Q+A , 9-10am Sundays on TV ONE. Repeats at 9.10pm Sundays, 10.10am and 2.10pm Mondays on TVNZ 7

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MURRAY McCULLY interviewed by GUYON ESPINER

GUYON ESPINER
Thank you, Minister, for joining us. We appreciate your time. Will Mara be allowed into NZ?

MURRAY McCULLY – Foreign Minister
Well, the short answer is yes. We’re not going to take him off the travel ban list completely, but we are going to give him an exemption. He requested an opportunity to meet with various groups for two days. We’ll give him an exemption for that purpose.

GUYON So he stays on the list of banned people, but he gets an exemption. Is that different from the Australian situation?

MURRAY Yes, the Australian practice tends to be to take people off the list quite quickly. NZ’s had a history of being slower to do that, but providing exemptions. We’re following that course on this occasion. If you’re asking should we be more closely aligned with Australia in that respect, I think the answer is we should look at that, but the policy is the policy at the moment, and I think we should employ the normal practice here of providing an exemption.

GUYON So he will come to NZ when?

MURRAY Uh, well, I understand he wants to come in this week after his visit to Australia , but that’s over to him. If it’s convenient for him to come in for a couple of days for the purpose that’s being requested, then we’ll grant that exemption.

GUYON So, what is the thinking here? Why are you allowing him to come?

MURRAY Uh, well, first and foremost, we are in the business of considering exemptions on a fairly regular basis – not just people who have got out of the military or got out of the regime – people coming through for humanitarian reasons or whatever who happen to be on the list. And so what we’ve tried to do is treat this in the same way that we treat any other request. I have requests from ministers in the current regime to transit NZ because it’s the only way they can get to a regional meeting.

GUYON Sure, but it’s disingenuous, surely, to say that this is just a run-of-the-mill application. You just heard the guy talk about the fact that he commanded men who committed human rights abuses, that he has, by his own admission, things to answer for for being a major figure in the military regime.

MURRAY Which is a good reason for not immediately giving him pin-up boy status overnight So we’ve simply said, ‘Look, let’s take this carefully. Let’s consider this on the same basis as any other request.’ We got a request for an exemption, I think, last Thursday. We’ve turned it around. I spoke to the Immigration Minister, who’s my fellow decision maker on this matter. Last night we got the advice, and we decided to grant the exemption.

GUYON Sure, and I’m sure you followed the processes, but it’s more than just a process and a bureaucratic issue. I assume that there’s some strategy behind this, and I presume that the strategy is that you want to give comfort to the people who are willing to defect and willing to challenge the regime. I presume that we are trying to stoke change in Fiji by allowing him here.

MURRAY Well, we’re trying to do two things that are potentially in conflict. Yes, we are trying to encourage people to part company with the regime and to part company with the military and reward them when they do that, but we’re also trying to de-escalate tensions in the region at the moment, and your programme’s already indicated, there are tensions there internally in Fiji, there are tensions between Fiji and Tonga. We actually need to play a careful hand here so that we don’t stoke fires that could potentially bring the region into conflict.

GUYON And we’ll get to that. Um, I just wonder what it is that you want from him, though. Do you imagine an exchange of information? Will you meet with him, I guess?

MURRAY If he comes in this week, I’ll be overseas in Melanesia most of the week, but we will ask the Ministry of Foreign Affairs officials from the Pacific division to meet with him, and then they’ll make a recommendation as to what further discussions should take place.

GUYON No government ministers, though.

MURRAY Well, after the officials have made their assessment, they’d consider that, but that’s for them to make the assessment in the first place.

GUYON And are you willing and keen to get information from him?

MURRAY Oh, look, we are. The allegations that are being made are very serious, and they come from someone who is highly credible in that sense. But we also need to hear the information in a proper environment that’s not a politically charged environment, with the news media involved in the proceedings. It’s a situation where the officials can sit down and carefully weigh this stuff up.

GUYON Nick Naidu wrote to you this week. He’s from the Coalition for Democracy in Fiji , based in Auckland here. I’ll quote to you from a letter that he wrote to you. He said that, ‘Mara headed the largest division within the Fijian military and was directly responsible for the illegal arrest, detention, torture and sexual assault and abuse of hundreds of people. There have been a number of deaths of ordinary Fiji citizens while in custody of
Lt Col Mara’s soldiers.’ So he’s asking you, ‘Why would you let a man like that into NZ?’

MURRAY Well, as I say, you’ve given us plenty of reasons why we shouldn’t give him immediate pin-up boy status, but clearly he has some information to impart. We’ve made the decision that the appropriate thing is for NZ to receive that information, to allow him to meet with the groups that he wants to meet with for a couple of days, and for us to make a careful assessment. What we also need to do is avoid an environment where we stoke up tension in a region that’s got plenty of it at the moment. We also need to make sure that we take this step by step, and we’re trying to be careful about that.

GUYON What do you think the reaction may be from the Bainimarama regime. Is it possible they may expel the acting high commissioner again?

MURRAY Well, both NZ and Australia have been conscious, in allowing
Col Mara to visit, that’s a potential outcome. We’ve been trying to manage—I’ve been particularly trying to manage things on the most professional footing that we can achieve and to ensure that we try and get the temperature down.

GUYON You said that that there’s a potential, then, for the acting high commissioner to be expelled. Have preparations been made for that?

MURRAY No, well, we’ve had four thrown out so far, so it’s not rocket science to work out that any inflammation in that respect could bring about an outcome like that. I’m hoping that we can get through this without those sorts of outcomes being in the frame.

GUYON Before I directly leave that Mara issue, I wonder if you could tell us the status of Anthony Fullman, the NZ man who’s being questioned by police in Fiji as to whether he assisted Mara escape. Now, I understand his passport has been confiscated by the police in Fiji . What else can you tell us about his circumstances?

MURRAY I can’t tell you a great deal because it’s a consular case which our people are working on, and it’s got some significant challenges associated with it. All I can say is we’re very much aware of Mr Fullman’s situation, and we’re trying to give the best assistance we can in the circumstances, but it’s not going to help him too much for me to elaborate.

GUYON Ok. I respect that, but are you concerned about his health and well-being?

MURRAY We’re taking a close interest in his situation and will try and give him all the help we can.

GUYON He’s not being detained by police?

MURRAY He’s not being detained.

GUYON As you alluded to before, this comes at a time of significant tension between Fiji and Tonga , and we saw overnight essentially a confrontation between warships of those two countries. How concerned are you about relations between Tonga and Fiji ?

MURRAY Well, that again is not new. We’ve had some activity around the Minerva Reef for some time. This is not a new situation, and we’re just simply urging the parties to use the international procedures that exist to deal with any differences they have.

GUYON So you don’t have a fear that this will escalate further?

MURRAY Well, obviously there’s the potential for things to become more serious, and it calls for both parties to follow the internationally agreed disputes procedure for dealing with the situation, rather than taking the law into their own hands. We’ve called on both parties to do that and for both of them to avoid any flashpoint there.

GUYON In terms of change in Fiji and the sort of crusade that we see Mara now embarking on, what is your analysis and intelligence say about whether this is having any effect? I mean, how significant is this defection, and in this in any way the beginning of the end for Bainimarama?

MURRAY Well, I think Col Mara has already described the fact that the pressures that exist, including the NZ sanctions, are having an effect at the moment. Col Mara is part of a very prominent, very powerful family in Fiji . His sister is the wife of the president. His other sister was the wife of the acting prime minister, the defence minister when he resigned from office late last year. The fact that there is tension there between this powerful family and some of the chiefs and regime is a development that certainly is going to put pressure on the regime in Fiji to think about the way forward.

GUYON Are we hearing about more defections from the military?

MURRAY No, I think it’s early days yet. This is going to take some time to play out, but the fact that Col Mara has parted company in the circumstances he did creates a whole new dynamic in what was already a pretty confusing situation.

GUYON Bainimarama has said that he intends to hold elections in 2014. Do you believe him?

MURRAY Uh, look, I think that there is certainly a school of thought amongst his senior ministers, and I’ve talked to a number of them. They’re convinced that he will have elections in 2014, but the fact that he is so quick on occasion when provoked that maybe Fiji ’s not going to be ready by then tells you that he hasn’t made up his own mind yet. Let’s give him the benefit of the doubt, though. The question, if there are elections in Fiji , would become, ‘Are those elections going to be free and fair? Can all parties participate?’

GUYON And the answer to that in his own words is no. Hasn’t he, in fact, banned any politician who has played a role in Fijian politics since 1987 from actually participating in the elections?

MURRAY And that goes really to the nub of it here. If we’re going to find a way forward, then it’s got to involve the lifting of the emergency regulations, some respect for the right of other political parties to exist and other politicians to campaign and stand for office. Those are the sorts of meaningful signs that we need to see if the forum and the Commonwealth and other international organisations are going to say, ‘Yeah, well, progress is being made. We need to provide some help.’

GUYON Just a couple of minutes left. I want to turn to, I guess, the convergence, of rugby and politics, because we get this phrase ‘rugby diplomacy’, I suppose, in a way. Fiji ’s obsessed with rugby. They’ll be very disappointed that some of their best players won’t be able to come because of the travel sanctions. Do you think that they blame Bainimarama for that, or do they blame NZ? Are we winning hearts and minds in that respect?

MURRAY I think that’s where we have to be very careful when we deal with situations like the one we confront at the moment. I think that in Fiji there are many people who don’t care about being suspended from the Commonwealth, don’t care particularly about being suspended from the forum, but do care a great deal about being able to participate in rugby and especially the Rugby World Cup. I’ve seen that as an opportunity rather than a problem. I see it as an opportunity for us to say to the people of Fiji , ‘This is a time where we need to make some progress.’ It’s a time when I’m saying to their leadership, ‘We’re happy to engage with you. If you really are serious about elections, we’re prepared to help. We can help with the census. We can help with the electoral boundaries. We can help with the other procedural issues that are required to hold elections.’ But, as I say, for there to be any credibility around that process, that’s got to involve the lifting of the emergency regulations and some respect for human rights. And the fact that we haven’t seen those things has been a problem. But I remain an optimist because that’s my job.

GUYON Ok. But at the same time, we learn this morning you are going to allow cricketers from Zimbabwe to have visas to come into NZ despite this murderous dictatorship which holds power in Zimbabwe . How can you possibly allow them to come in, yet not Fijian rugby players?

MURRAY We’re doing exactly the same with Zimbabwe that we’re doing for Fiji . In both places we have sporting sanctions, which means the sports teams are not allowed to play here. In respect of Fiji , we provide exemptions on those sporting sanctions on a very liberal basis. In fact, we always do give those exemptions, but the individuals who are subject of individual sanctions because they’re part of the military or the regime itself can’t come in. Zimbabwe will be treated exactly the same. Their team will be given an exemption under the current arrangements, but the players who are part of the regime or the military or who are, for some other reason, on our list of sanctions will not be allowed to play.

GUYON So none of the cricketers who have links to the Mugabe regime will actually be allowed.

MURRAY That’s correct. And the situation in Zimbabwe is one that we’re being quite conditional about. We’re watching it carefully—

GUYON It’s not getting any better.

MURRAY No, it’s not, but we’re keeping closely in touch with, for example, the Minister of Sport and others in Zimbabwe to ask the question, ‘If we allow this to happen, are we going to be part of the problem or part of the solution?’ We think that on the current settings, being part of the solution would be to allow that team to come here, as things stand.

GUYON Ok. Got to leave it there. Murray McCully, Foreign Minister, thanks very much for your time.

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