Corin Dann interviews Anne Tolley, Police Minister

Police Minister Anne Tolley wants to see the Independent Police Complaints Authority recommendations written into police policy.
 
She doesn’t think police are reluctant to make changes, but if they were reluctant, then she would step in.
 
Minister says she’s standing right alongside the Commissioner saying sorry. “I’m very sorry that the police did exceed their authority with the road blocks and some of the search warrants.”
  
Q+A, 9-10am Sundays on TV ONE and one hour later on TV ONE plus 1. Repeated Sunday evening at 11:30pm. Streamed live at www.tvnz.co.nz   
 
Thanks to the support from NZ On Air.
 
Q+A is on Facebook, http://www.facebook.com/NZQandA#!/NZQandA and on Twitter, http://twitter.com/#!/NZQandA
 
Q+A
 
CORIN DANN INTERVIEWS ANNE TOLLEY
 
 
SUSAN WOOD
‘Unlawful, unjustified and unreasonable.’ Highly critical words from the Independent Police Conduct Authority on police actions in Tuhoe country back in 2007.  Sir David Carruthers found police had no right to block roads, search vehicles and photograph the occupants or to detain residents while their homes were being searched.  Yet, overall, Sir David says the operation targeting suspected terrorist activity in the Ureweras was ‘reasonable and justified’.  Anne Tolley is Police Minister and the local East Coast MP. Corin asked her how she felt about the way her constituents were treated.
 
ANNE TOLLEY - Police Minister
Well, I have been aware for quite some time that there were real concerns from the community and that they had made complaints. But I think that’s the reality. I’ve never witnessed a full-scale police raid, operation like that with the men in black. Just seeing them on the TV. That’s not the way we perceive our police. We don’t have an armed police. So I think it’s understandable when that scale of operation happens in a very small, isolated community, that people will feel distressed, and I thought it was quite proper that the Police Commissioner went last year and opened dialogue and made an apology to the innocent people in Ruatoki.
 
CORIN DANN
Have you talked to community leaders about it in the region and expressed how you may be able to help?
 
ANNE             No, up until the IPCA report came out, I’ve been in a very difficult position for a local MP, so I have really kept quiet. I’ve listened, and as you can imagine, I’ve had people in my office that have made complaints, but I’ve said until the court cases are completed, the legal processes are completed, we can’t get the IPCA report out. Once that’s out, and now we’ve got that, now we can start.
 
CORIN            But you were able to express sympathies to these people?
 
ANNE             We always do. People who are feeling distressed, whether it was justified or not, you have to listen. That’s what you do, isn’t it?
 
CORIN            So what can you do now as minister, because now you do have the opportunity to ensure that this does not happen again. How are you going to make sure that doesn’t happen?
 
ANNE             Well, I think, you know, let’s remember that this was a major police operation. Certainly, we all hope that doesn’t have to happen again. So the discussions that I’m having with the commissioner around implementing the recommendations from the report and I think the ones that specifically relate to small, isolated communities. So making sure that a good assessment is done prior to any operation. How is that being written? I know they made some changes in 2009, but what does that look like in today’s world?
 
CORIN            Well, that’s a good point. Could I pick you up on that, because the report clearly says that those changes on the community impact assessments - six of the 12 AOS squads hadn’t implemented those changes.
 
ANNE             Yep.
 
CORIN            And, in fact, a new directive had to be put in place in March this year.
 
ANNE             That’s right.
 
CORIN            So what that says is that there is a blockage here. That the changes get called for and nothing happens.
 
ANNE             Yeah. So that, you know, will be on the table, and I want to see them written into the police policy, and I want to see that that’s written into their training as well so that that just becomes a standard procedure.
 
CORIN            Are we getting to a point now where in fact perhaps we need more ministerial oversight of the police, that you actually need to be a bit tougher on them and get in there a bit more?
 
ANNE             Well, there’s always a balance. Um, you know, this is operational. I guess where I come from is around the policy. So particularly where the IPCA, who are an independent group who have a look at them. So I use them as my guide as to what I should be asking-
 
CORIN            But do you feel at all that maybe, given other cases - we’ve had Louise Nicholas - and the enquiry recommendations from that report are still lagging a long way behind in terms of implementation, that in fact we actually need our Police Minister, whoever that may be, to get in there and have more of a hands-on role?
 
ANNE             Well, I think you’re forgetting that whilst these are important issues, the police do a hang of a lot of work that is tremendous out in our communities. In fact, public satisfaction is at an all-time high.
 
CORIN            And no one disputes that the police do a great job-
 
ANNE             Crime’s coming down.
 
CORIN            They do. But there seems to be a problem with them changing. When some bad behaviour is identified, and every organisation might have some, they seem to have a problem making the changes, and I’m saying is it time for the minister, the government to get tougher?
 
ANNE             Well, I don’t think that’s a fair assumption to make, that they are reluctant to make changes. Certainly, out of the Louise Nicholas and the Royal Commission, the changes are enormous that the police have made.
 
CORIN            And at the halfway point, they were lagging miles behind.
 
ANNE             Only on a few issues, but by and large, the majority of the recommendations were put into place. But the important thing with those is that it wasn’t just a matter of making changes to policy, etc. That goes to 2017, so their whole methodology and the way it’s implemented-
 
CORIN            Ok, but as far as you’re concerned, you don’t see any need for ministers, the government to have a more hands-on role to make sure police are doing what they’re supposed to do?
 
ANNE             Look, what I don’t see is a reluctance from police to make changes to the way that their operations are to give the public better confidence. They are very conscious. They take these sorts of recommendations, these sorts of findings, extremely seriously. If they weren’t, if I was seeing that, then I would share your concerns.
 
CORIN            Then you would step in?
 
ANNE             Yep, absolutely.
 
CORIN            Ok. The other accusation coming at the police now from the likes of the Mana Party and the Maori Party, who clearly feel that basically there is institutional racism in play here, and that this was a case of a community - a poor, rural, Maori community - being targeted unfairly. Do you see any need for an investigation along those lines?
 
ANNE             No, and the IPCA report makes it very clear that actually the people who were the targets, the people who were identified as taking part in these activities, were Maori and Pakeha. So the IPCA report has looked at that, because those charges were made, and they have found no evidence to back that. Do we have too many Maori incarcerated in our justice system? Absolutely. And the police are working very closely with iwi to go right back in the whole justice system and address that.
 
CORIN            But the interesting thing here was that the iwi liaison officers, they weren’t involved on that morning, though, were they?
 
ANNE             No.
 
CORIN            That was the problem here. So they were sort of an afterthought.
 
ANNE             Well, no, it wasn’t. Again, the IPCA report makes it very clear that that was something that was thought through very carefully by police, and it was decided not to compromise. So there was a recognition of the very important role that they have, and they would have been put in a very compromising position. So, again, the IPCA report has a very good section on this, and comes to the conclusion-
 
CORIN            So you don’t see any intuitional racism there?
 
ANNE             No.
 
CORIN            Because there are calls, for example, for the entire justice system to be reviewed under United Nations directives.
 
ANNE             Yes.
 
CORIN            Is there any need for that?
 
ANNE             I think the Search and Surveillance Act that came into play in 2012 made it very clear, changed a lot of the protocols, particularly around the law applying to searches and surveillance that bring into account the Bill of Rights and has put in place new procedures. And the IPCA again makes the comments that there would have been other recommendations.
 
CORIN            Why no apology from the government on this?
 
ANNE             Well, because the actions of the police in, first of all, the surveillance that was done on this operation and then the actual operation itself were found to be justified by the IPCA. These were very dangerous people.
 
CORIN            Yes, but the way they carried them out were clearly unlawful, and surely not only does there need to be an apology, but surely there must also need to be someone held accountable. Why nobody being held accountable and no apology?
 
ANNE             Well, there is an apology, and the Police Commissioner has publicly apologised, both for the distress caused to innocent people, but he has also apologised for where the police acted beyond their authority. This happened almost six years ago.
 
CORIN            But we’ll come back to the Crown, because Chris Finlayson told my colleague Michael Parkin in March that an apology of some sort was likely. Why nothing today?
 
ANNE             Well, in fact there is an apology today.
 
CORIN            No, from the Crown.
 
ANNE             Well, I’m standing- As Minister of Police, I’m standing right alongside the commissioner. I’m very sorry that the police did exceed their authority with the road blocks and some of the search warrants. I’m very sorry that that happened.
 
CORIN            So as Police Minister, you are offering an apology?
 
ANNE             Well, I’m standing behind the commissioner saying he’s apologising and I’m very sorry too.
 
CORIN            But what does that mean? I mean, are you worried? I mean, I guess what we’re trying to say is are you worried that if you somehow- are you going to make the Crown liable to some sort of compensation claim if you give a fulsome apology or something?
 
ANNE             Well, other, better powers than myself will give advice to the Prime Minister and therefore to the government on the long-term issues, but at the moment, you know, I’m saying the police have apologised. I think that’s appropriate, and I’m standing behind the commissioner as he makes that apology.
 
CORIN            Nobody held accountable? No heads are rolling? Why will police, why will people who made those decisions on the ground, who broke people’s rights, breached people’s rights, stop doing that if they don’t see that people are being held accountable?
 
ANNE             Well, I think there has been a significant review by police. I don’t know whether there are any employment issues out of that, but, in fact, the actual actions that the police took- This was a very complex- It involved 300 police right across the country, so this was a big operation.
 
CORIN            Surely, though, somebody must be accountable. Are heads going to roll?
 
ANNE             Well, the commissioner is accountable, but he wasn’t the commissioner at the time.
 
CORIN            Ok, but there must have been people who were there who were in positions of power who made those decisions. Is anybody’s head going to roll over this?
 
ANNE             Well, I don’t have anything to do with employment issues. So I would imagine the commissioner would then look at- And the IPCA report makes it very clear that there was no deliberate intent to break the law. So where they have been found to have acted unlawfully, it wasn’t done deliberately.
 
CORIN            So why didn’t they know the rules, then?
 
ANNE             Well, again, if you back to the report, it itself says that the law at that time was quite unclear over some of these issues, and that’s why we have the Search and Surveillance Act that was put into place afterwards, which has picked up a lot of those unclear issues.
 
CORIN            In the end, this is going to come back to confidence in the police. You’ve also had an illegal raid with Kim Dotcom as well. There have been issues with police allegations of selling drugs, an incident in Auckland. Confidence in the police is crucial. Why should the public have confidence in the police at the moment?
 
ANNE             Because they’re doing a fantastic job. Crime is at an all-time low. They’re out there in the communities, and you can’t judge. For instance, they make over three million traffic stops a year, so tremendous amounts of work.
 
CORIN            But they’ve got two big cases wrong.
 
ANNE             Well, they didn’t get this case wrong. They were absolutely right in going in to protect public safety.
 
CORIN            I’ll put it another way. The way they carried them out was done wrong.
 
ANNE             In some small instances. The whole operation wasn’t found to be incorrect. Yes, the road black at both Taneatua and Ruatoki Valley was found to be unlawful. And, yes, five out of 41 searches. Now, so all the rest, they were done correctly.
 
CORIN            Sure, but why will the public have confidence that the next time a big terrorist episode comes up that the police will do this properly?
 
ANNE             Well, we will make every endeavour to make sure they do, but the important thing is that they were right to go in. There was a huge risk to public safety, and the worst outcome would be that next time the police don’t go in and arrest the people and stop those sorts of activities when they see them happening.
 
CORIN            Police Minister Anne Tolley, thank you very much for your time.
 
ANNE             Thank you.

ENDS

© Scoop Media