Sitting date: 12 Aug 2025

Government's Announcement—Consideration of Recognition of a State of Palestine

Hon PEENI HENARE (Labour): Thank you, Mr Speaker. I move, That the House take note of a matter of urgent public importance.

Not a day goes by when members of this House and the New Zealand public see pictures, images, and videos of a humanitarian crisis not seen for generations. Men, women, children, babies, media, and health workers are dying. Men, women, children, and babies are suffering—are starving. Over 60,000 people have been killed in Gaza since the war began. We condemn the Hamas attacks on 7 October 2023, but we cannot deny what is unfolding before our very eyes.

We have heard today an aid blockade has caused widespread hunger and desperation. The Prime Minister, in his contribution in the House today, has said that is the biggest barrier to getting aid to where it is needed the most. Other countries are finding a way. We know that other countries are parachuting aid into the places where it is needed the most. We know they are coming together and using their collective voice to make sure that the people in Gaza who are suffering get what they need.

New Zealand has long held its head high as an international citizen. When asked to show leadership on important matters, our country has put its hand up in the past. On many occasions, we have put our hand up, despite it being very unpopular with others, and we have stood strong on our principles and our values. The Labour Party has consistently called for an immediate ceasefire, an end to the suffering in Gaza, and recognition of the State of Palestine. The war in Gaza has killed so many and created the humanitarian crisis which greets us every morning when we open our eyes. Recognition, we believe, is a necessary step towards ending the cycle of violence we are witnessing. We are being told many things by this Government, and the thing that disappoints us the most is that, today, we heard that we will wait till September while the Cabinet and the leadership of this country deliberate on an outcome, or a matter, that is of huge importance to Palestine and the people who are suffering. September! That is a number of weeks away.

We asked the question of the Government: how many more people will suffer and how many more people will die because of the Government dragging its heels on such an important matter? We are being left behind. New Zealand is being left behind on the international stage. Many people we call close partners, the people we call close allies, and others are leading the charge of the recognition of Palestine as a State. They are leading the charge on making sure that aid gets to where it needs to get to the most—to the people who are suffering in Gaza. We are dragging the chain in the efforts of the International Court of Justice, as they are overwhelmed by the case work in front of them, and we have not heard much from this Government in support of the work that they do.

We heard today that some $36 million of aid has been contributed to this humanitarian crisis—$36 million! I put to the members of this House that that is nowhere near enough. We have debated in this House on many topics and on matters that relate to New Zealanders. We've talked about the financial assistance that they need. I implore this Government to consider, once again, their contributions to the aid that is very much needed in Gaza today. We've been told by this Government that it is a case of if and not when. While it's clear that, once again, Gaza, the people of Palestine, and the people of the world have to wait till September to when this Government will come together to consider the response to this matter, I can say that on this side of the House, when Labour was in power—for the urgent matters that faced, not only this country but the world—we came together quickly, with urgency, to make sure that we led the response from our country on this matter. We stand proudly by that record.

What we're seeing from this Government is inactivity, and, sadly, they are walking blissfully into the sunset of ignorance. I don't say that lightly. I say that we can no longer do that. When the world needed leadership, once again our country stood up. We think it is time for action. Labour are making it very clear to this Government our demands here today. We demand that this Government shows the strong leadership that our country deserves. We demand recognition of statehood for Palestine, and this demands that Government meet urgently on this matter and not wait for September. We believe that is one of the steps in making sure that we can de-escalate this humanitarian crisis that unfolds before our very eyes.

Labour demands more targeted aid to feed and support the people in Gaza. Other countries have bypassed Isreal's system and blockade. They have made sure aid has got to where it is needed the most, and we demand this of this Government. We demand continued support of the important work of the International Court of Justice. We should be doing everything we can to support that important work, to make sure that not only can we sort this matter out in Gaza but also set a precedence for any State actor across the world that this kind of activity, and these sorts of actions, can no longer be tolerated into the future.

We are very disappointed with what's happening. We are sad with what we've seen in Gaza, but we are more disappointed in what seems to be the lack of activity by this Government on the matter. This has been a matter that has been put as questions in the House since it began. It has been a matter that has been debated in this House time and time again. Yet we heard, once again, from the Prime Minister today that they will be meeting in September to consider this matter urgently. We demand that the Prime Minister shows the leadership our country deserves and calls an urgent Cabinet to make sure that this matter can be decided upon, and deliberated, at the next convenient time, which we encourage to be this week.

We no longer sit on our hands in this part of the world. We no longer sit back and wait for others to act and sit idle on the sidelines. We've made our position clear. Once again, we condemn the actions made by Hamas on that terrible day in October 2023, but since then, we can no longer—as we come to the anniversary of that particular attack that we condemn—sit on our hands and watch this humanitarian crisis grow deeper and deeper and deeper by the day. My encouragement to the Government is not only to heed the words of the Labour Party on this matter but of New Zealanders on this matter. Communities across New Zealand and, indeed, the world are standing up. They're saying that this can no longer be tolerated, and we believe that New Zealand should, once again, take its place as a global citizen and show leadership on this matter.

I want to just once again reiterate the stance of Labour on this matter and the demands that we make of this Government. We ask that they show the leadership and courage our country deserves. Once again, we ask for the recognition of statehood for Palestine, we ask for more targeted aid to those who are suffering in this humanitarian crisis, and we ask for the continued support of the important work of the International Court of Justice. Then, after all that is done, we should ask ourselves: what more can we do?

As we look towards not only the humanitarian crisis—we know the economic crisis that awaits us once we are able to deal with this humanitarian crisis before us. So, we ask this Government to ask itself: what more can we do? I said earlier that, sadly, this country—under the leadership of this Government—is walking blissfully into the sunset of denial. We can no longer do that. We must stand strong on the principles and values of our great country, show leadership on the international stage, and be the global citizen we have been in the past where we have shown the world just how great we are despite our small numbers, how great we are despite our isolation, and how we can do so much more to support the world in its time of need. We call for action, and the Labour Party will demand it from this Government today and until the decisions are made that we expect to be made.

Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs): As the Good Book says, by their deeds you'll know them. If you look at yesterday's Order Paper for this House's business and today's Order Paper for this House's business, there is no primary question on the question of Palestine from the Opposition—not one. In all those opportunities, for two days, not one question—not one primary question.

Chlöe Swarbrick: You're dancing on the head of a pin.

Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: No, I'm not dancing on a pinhead. I've giving you the facts: not one primary question in two days. Yesterday, we took an oral item to Cabinet to set up the process for making a decision on this matter. As we outlined in our press release yesterday—and here it is—this is not straightforward or a clearcut issue. Some of our partners are in favour of recognition; others are not. We have talked to countless Islamic countries and the Palestinian Authority—all those people that these people over here have never even known or even talked to—and they understand our position. Our focus over the next month is on gathering information and talking to partners to inform Cabinet's ultimate decision, so that we can make the best possible decision, in keeping with New Zealand's interests, values, and principles.

Hon Damien O'Connor: Bloody gutless.

Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: We are not going to listen to scaremongers—

SPEAKER: No—sorry, I do just need to interrupt the member. I've had enough of that, so you can stand up, withdraw, and apologise, or leave the House—one of the two.

Hon Damien O'Connor: I'll leave the House.

SPEAKER: Good.

Hon Damien O'Connor withdrew from the Chamber.

Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: We have talked to all those Islamic countries, whether it be Indonesia, whether it be Turkey, whether it be Saudi Arabia, whether it be the Emirates, or whether it be Egypt. That's the difference. We know this is a complex issue, with strong opinions on both sides. They, of course, are demanding that Hamas lay down its arms and leave the country, but I don't hear that from over here. Strong opinions there are on both sides. That is why we are approaching this issue carefully, judiciously, and calmly. We'll be attending the United Nations General Assembly meeting in New York next month, when this issue is on the debating paper, and we'll be set to speak to it.

Can I just say this: between now and then, we'll be weighing this decision carefully, rather than rushing to judgment. For the Labour Party's benefit, they had 15 years to recognise Palestine statehood. I heard Helen Clark this morning. Well, she was the Prime Minister from 1999 to 2008. Did she do that then? No. Then, from 2017 to 2023, they had a second chance—and Mr Hipkins was there as well—to do that then? Did they do it in those six years? No. So, please, answer this question—please, answer this question—why on earth now do they think they have the answers when they didn't have them then? All we're asking—and when we're saying it's a matter of "when", not "if"—is to know what we're going to recognise. Surely that's a responsibility we all have? We're weighing up this decision carefully rather than rushing to judgment, and that, sir, is the position of this Government. Thank you.

SPEAKER: Can I just indicate that the timing mechanism appears to be a little bit off, so I'll do my best to make sure that everyone gets a fair go.

CHLÖE SWARBRICK (Co-Leader—Green): E te Māngai, tēnā koe. Tēnā koutou e te Whare. I guess, at this point in time, the question really has to be asked: what words are left? We have libraries and libraries and libraries worth of evidence and research and data that tells us that what is happening in Palestine—and has been happening for the last 76 years—is ethnic cleansing. It is apartheid. It is genocide. And then there are the livestreams that are now being delivered to all of our cellphones 24/7 over the better part of the last two years. My question for this place is: what the hell is the point of our jobs? Because, so far, all I have heard from contributions is the blame game. New Zealanders—the world—deserve so much better than that.

We hear from members of the Government and from the Prime Minister, in response to our questions today, that this is all just a matter of strongly held views, apparently on both sides. But genocide is a fact, not a feeling. Omer Bartov, a professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies at Brown University, says, "My inescapable conclusion has become that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinian people. Having grown up in a Zionist home, lived the first half of my life in Israel, served in the I.D.F. as a soldier and officer and spent most of my career researching and writing on war crimes and the Holocaust, this was a painful conclusion to reach, and one that I resisted as long as I could. But I have been teaching classes on genocide for a quarter of a century. I can recognize one when I see one."

We asked the Prime Minister today what the harm could possibly be of recognising, in the most basic sense, Palestinian Statehood; and frankly, he could not answer the question. Instead, in the face of half a million people being consciously and intentionally starved to death, after being mercilessly carpet bombed and snipered as they line up for food aid, the Prime Minister decided to appeal, once again, to Hamas. In the face of innocent people being slaughtered, he appealed to, "But what about the terrorist organisation"?

So to use that rationale, and to use that logic and response, this Government is willing, so far, to seemingly only recognise one of the two States in the two-State solution that is supposedly arguing for. Yet it is not willing to apply the same rationale with regards to terroristic violence, the likes of the genocidal campaign which Israel and the IDF is currently raining down on the Palestinian people. How is that not the basis for the same questions to be asked about the Statehood of Israel?

Then there are just the bold-faced facts: we are a laggard, we are an outlier, and it is not only appalling in the face of this genocide and of the merciless slaughter of these innocent people, after having been made refugees in their own land, but we are one of the very few countries in the world who, so far, refuse to acknowledge the absolute bare minimum. One hundred and forty-six UN-member States currently recognise Palestinian Statehood—that is three-quarters of the United Nations membership—and so far, over the last few weeks, we have seen that the United Kingdom, Canada, France, and Australia have all moved to commit their intent. But so far, all our Government can seem to do is commit to a process. It utterly beggars belief.

Human rights should not be conditional. We don't get human rights because somebody else decides that we are worthy, but we get them because we are human. The best way to lose your own human rights is to care about them only when it impacts and affects you. But we have so much further to go than merely recognising the Statehood of Palestine, as we should have done 76 years ago. We can and we must uphold the Genocide Convention, which means doing everything that we can to prevent a genocide before it occurs. So I will reiterate my call for the Government to pick up our Unlawful Occupation of Palestine Sanctions Bill and to sanction Israel for its war crimes. If we find six of 68 Government MPs with a spine, we can stand on the right side of history—

SPEAKER: That is completely unacceptable to make that statement. Withdraw it and apologise.

CHLÖE SWARBRICK: No.

SPEAKER: Then leave the House for the rest of the week.

Chlöe Swarbrick withdrew from the Chamber.

SIMON COURT (ACT): Thank you, Mr Speaker. New Zealanders are compassionate people. It is excruciating to watch the suffering of Palestinians and, of course, those Israelis who were murdered and abused at the hands of Hamas on October 7, 2023; it's excruciating to watch Palestinians being used as human shields by the terrorists who control Gaza; and it's excruciating to watch Hamas propaganda being bandied around this House by those who should know better when that organisation is feeding its fighters while Palestinian civilians in Gaza go hungry. I hope Kiwis—in fact, I trust Kiwis—can distinguish between the hallucinating outrage of that member Chlöe Swarbrick when it comes to the situation in Gaza.

I want to acknowledge that New Zealand, ultimately, knows that Israel has real responsibilities to the civilians in Gaza, but I also want New Zealanders listening to know—

Celia Wade-Brown: Point of order.

SPEAKER: Point of order—

SIMON COURT: —that there is no evidence and New Zealand does not agree—

SPEAKER: Hang on, we've got a point of order just called.

Celia Wade-Brown: I think that member's comments were offensive, and he should apologise and withdraw.

SPEAKER: I was contemplating the remark that was made and I think it can be considered offensive. The member should withdraw that comment.

SIMON COURT: Just to clarify, which comment was that?

SPEAKER: It was when you gave a description of the commentary from a previous speaker.

SIMON COURT: Was that the comment about when I—

SPEAKER: Well, if you're going to argue with me—you either withdraw and apologise or you will terminate and leave as well.

SIMON COURT: Well, in that case, I withdraw and apologise. I'll continue: we must consider, then, what can New Zealand do to help civilians in Gaza? Well, the Prime Minister stated today—and thank you, Hon Peeni Henare for acknowledging New Zealand has donated roughly $37 million in aid that Israel and the United States as well as the United Nations are helping get to civilians in Gaza. That is important. But then we come to the question in this debate: should New Zealand recognise a State of Palestine, which may include Gaza and areas of the West Bank of the River Jordan, a place where millions of Palestinians live?

Well, before I address that, I just wanted to put on the record that Israel withdrew entirely its military forces and its control of the Gaza Strip in 2007 and left it to the Palestinian administration to rule. All Israelis were removed. Their homes, their businesses, even their graves and the bodies of their dead ancestors were removed. What happened next? Hamas took over and they turned it into a terrorist State. Therefore, what should New Zealanders and our Government be thinking about as we consider the question posed by the Hon Peeni Henare?

Well, security must come before politics. There cannot be progress towards recognising a Palestinian State until all Israeli hostages are returned and Hamas is dismantled. That is the position our foreign Minister has again reiterated today. Both States or entities must recognise and uphold the civil liberties of their own people as set out in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Recognition matters, because any deal that includes clear recognition of a Palestinian State must also include recognition by the Arab States that support the creation of the State of Palestine, of Israel as the Jewish State and home of the Jewish people, and an end to claims against its very existence.

Demilitarisation is also non-negotiable. A future Palestinian entity must be demilitarised, and Israel must retain the ability to prevent future attacks. Even the Arab States that support Palestinian statehood agree with this point. We must end the dependency that the Palestinian people have had on this UNRWA—the United Nations Relief and Works Agency. Refugee aid should be delivered through credible agencies, not ones accused of and where there is evidence of them enabling terrorism.

Both parties in the region, Israel as a Jewish State, and a future Palestinian State, must commit to a process of truth and reconciliation that must be the basis of preventing future conflict.

Those are all the matters that New Zealanders and the New Zealand Government should be taking into account when thinking about should New Zealand act now or soon or ever, to recognise a Palestinian State. Mr Speaker, thank you.

DEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader—Te Pāti Māori): Thank you. I stand to speak to this kaupapa before us, which is, in fact, a moral imperative for us in Aotearoa. What we have done as a nation is proudly stood against humanitarian issues, such as anti-apartheid with South Africa. Interestingly enough, South Africa is also supporting the recognition of Palestine as a State and, actually, the whole issue that's going on in Gaza. We were also anti-nuclear and anti – nuclear testing in the Pacific. What we are as a nation, now, is failing. We are failing in our role as humanitarians, we are failing in our role as guardians for this nation, and we are watching a Government that has decided to take a side on genocide.

It is absolutely despicable to be in a nation where we have to sit in this House and listen to people justify why we should wait another month to recognise a State that is barely standing. What will be left? What will be left? Rubble? Martyred spirits? What is it that you want to have left in a month's time? What is it that you want our mokopuna, our children, all our kura kaupapa, and all our communities who know nothing about the history of Palestine and who know nothing about how Israel and the settlers have arrived there to be able to see next? What you're making up is excuses of how you justify, and how a Government justifies, why we have decided to be wahangū, to be silent, while innocent civilians are perishing, while they are starving, while they have been deliberately targeted, and while they have been sniped as they wait for food to come through. Hordes of aid are waiting to come through, and they are being denied deliberately—deliberately starved.

This is absolutely the worst thing that we are going to have to live with in our lifetimes, and I am never going to be standing here and agreeing with what this Government is saying is OK. We support what Chlöe and what Te Pāti Kākāriki are saying, we support a sanctions bill, and we must do more than just recognise Palestine. We must get in there and help out, in our capacity and in every way and form, to make sure these sanctions happen. We have to recognise the State of Palestine now. We need to stand in solidarity with the other 140-odd nations who have recognised it. We should be ending Israel's illegal occupation, now.

This is like someone coming to Parihaka and saying, after they've raped and murdered our three-year old children and our women, "It's OK. We're going to come and help you now."—after the fact. We do not need a light situation—sorry, Peeni, you should have been talking about sanctions. We need to expel the Israel ambassador, now, and every other country that is aiding and abetting Israel, now. There's nothing else that should be top of mind for every other leader politically in this world but ending this. We have absolutely no right to be in any diplomatic relationship. There is no two-State nation. We are way past that. One State has decided—in fact, this State has decided—that it's OK to give justice to the powerful. But, by goodness, if you're oppressed, your justice does not matter.

There is no equality in any of the thinking here, politically. I don't want to hear about 7 October—when, by the way, Labour was in Government at the time. You have not done enough, you settler parties. You have not done enough, because you recognise, in this domination, the same things that got you here. We are a nation that was formed off the misery and the pain and the violence of colonisation. But what are we doing? We have memory loss. We have memory loss of how bad it is and nothing—no race, no religion, no diplomatic scenario—can ever sit there and justify looking your children in the face and saying, in your role and in your sphere of influence, you denied the inability to end and stop the violent killing and slaughtering of innocent civilians. Nothing justifies it in this world. Nothing.

You have failed a whole nation of people, and I can't imagine how they're there. We're just a small nation. Anything we do is not going to have much of a punch, but it's actually about doing what's morally right and what's historically morally right. When you're all sitting here doing the Treaty settlements and saying to everybody, "I'm apologetic.", actually, you're just perpetuating the same thing on another nation and another race. This is ethnic cleansing. This is genocide and apartheid, and I have never been more ashamed to be in the House than I am today.

VANUSHI WALTERS (Labour): In the face of what is one of the worst humanitarian crises that we have seen, it is jarring—absolutely jarring—to see that we have a Government in place who are not standing up for our values; a Government in place who are, essentially, looking sideways at other nation States to determine what our foreign policy should be. We have a Prime Minister who has, for the most part, been silent on this humanitarian crisis. We have a Prime Minister who has not taken the action that he should have; a Prime Minister who is making things worse because he is, in effect, standing between New Zealanders and the true expression of our values.

It's jarring because for the longest time—whether we've had a Government that has been Labour led or a Government that has been National led—we have always put our values first on the international stage, and we are simply no longer doing that. Make no mistake: when the storm finally subsides, this Government will wake up on the wrong side of history. They will wake up, and they will realise that they should have recognised Palestine a long time ago, in the name of peace and in the name of justice. They will wake up and realise that they should have stood up for the rule of law by joining South Africa's case at the International Court of Justice. They will wake up and realise that they should have facilitated the reunification of Palestinians with their family members here, as we did in relation to Ukraine. They will wake up and realise that they truly should have championed our independent foreign policy, not waited until the very last possible moment to make the morally correct decision. But they have not done that.

It is not just the moral thing to do; it is the legally appropriate thing to do. I have been quite puzzled by the approach the Government have taken. If you look at when a nation State can and should be recognised, historically we are leaning on treaties that come out of the 1930s, including the Montevideo Convention, and there are many nation States who have already recognised Palestine on the basis of those traditional criteria. However, there is a growing body of thought that says there are new evolving norms and customary international law which we must bear in mind when deciding to recognise a nation State, and that includes the idea of transitional recognition—when you look to an evolving State and you recognise it as part of its journey to becoming a nation State. This is not new to New Zealand; we have done this before. In fact, we have done it in relation to Israel, in 1949, when its borders weren't certain. We did it in relation to Bosnia, in 1992; Kosovo, in 2008. In fact, in Bosnia, in 1992, in April when we recognised, its capital was under siege by other military, and yet we recognised those States. In terms of Iraq, under US rule, it was also recognised that there was a transitional State in place, too. It is something we have done before; it is something other countries are doing as well.

The next big question is: what will happen next month? Listening to the comments from Government members, it's clear that conditionalities will be placed on any position that they take—and that is the wrong position to have. Not only will we find ourselves out of step with the two-thirds of countries in the United Nations who have recognised Palestine, we will find ourselves out of steps with the UK, Canada, and Australia, who, I suspect, will have more accommodating provisions than we do. We will all be watching very closely what the final position is that this Government comes out with. There is more other than the position that this Government must do: visas, sanctions, joining the South African case, and ensuring that we have no procurement of goods from Israel.

Finally, to the State of Israel: aid is not and should not be conditional on military aims. Starvation is not a bargaining chip. This abhorrent behaviour must stop.

RICARDO MENÉNDEZ MARCH (Musterer—Green): Point of order. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I just had to go back to the video record to make sure that I have the correct words from the Speaker who was in your Chair earlier. Can I just check with you, relating to Standing Order 90, because Chlöe Swarbrick was told that she was to leave the House for the remainder of the week. Standing Order 90 makes it pretty clear that the provisions are only there for a day. So can I please have your confirmation as to whether this is a departure from the Standing Orders?

ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O'Connor): I'll take some advice on that. Thank you for bringing that to the attention of the House. The Clerk will take some advice on that. But, at this stage, the Speaker's ruling will stand until you hear otherwise.

Hon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour—Christchurch Central): Thank you, Mr Speaker. When is the time for the recognition of Palestine as a State? That time is now. It's not in four weeks or eight weeks. It's not when Cabinet convenes yet another meeting. It is time to give Palestine a seat at the table of the community of nations.

This has been done many times before we saw established borders and established institutions. In fact, in 1948 when this country recognised Israel, it didn't have established borders. It is really important to recognise why Palestine, in becoming a member of the community of nations—why that is a path to peace. It means that they can stand alongside their peers and join in United Nations and other treaties. They can participate in international tribunals, not as a secondary observer, but as an equal participant. It means that they can send diplomats—not some second-tier mission, but an ambassador—to speak and advocate on their behalf with other nations and in international forums. It means that we can recognise what we know, and that is that Israel is an illegal-occupying power in a foreign State.

It advances peace by recognising the equality of the Palestinian people with the people of Israel. That they both have an equal right to peace, an equal right to self-determination, and an equal right to access international tribunals. It makes it clear that Jewish and Israeli settlements on Palestinian land are illegal and that they are an annexation of the territory of a foreign State. It creates a legitimacy.

Now, I've heard a member from the Opposition talk about the preconditions to statehood, essentially saying we must have a state before we can have a state. But to build the apparatus of a state, we need to recognise the legitimacy of that. To build a court system, to build a system of government, a democracy, to build the services that are not under the thrall of the Israelis but stand independent and sovereign. To do that, it needs to be recognised that Palestine is a State, and it has the legitimacy for that project. It means that Palestine won't be dependent on Israel for its every need: for power, for food, for water. It means that we won't have to ask Israel before we can drive a truck into Palestine or a ship into a harbour full of aid and relief. It means that the Palestinian people can control their own borders for the inflow and outflow of people, for the trade that is the lifeline of a nation that Israel has suffocated for generations.

Here we are with this opportunity ahead of us, and our Government does nothing. The National Party won't even speak to this debate. They're silent in the face of this need. Yes, we have sent some aid, but we need to do much more. We need to provide real and meaningful aid and support. We need to provide visas for people who need to flee that conflict and need to come here. We need to impose sanctions for the horrors, for the international crimes that Israel is committing in Gaza and elsewhere. We cannot sit silent.

Yes, October 23 was horrific. Yes, the hostages should be released, but we cannot hold the Palestinian people themselves hostage while the world waits. The time is now.

ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O'Connor): The time for this debate has expired.

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