Q + A
Panel Discussion 1

Hosted by Paul Holmes in Response to Tariana Turia Interview

PAUL Time to welcome the panel. This week Dr Bryce Edwards from Otago University, former Waitakere mayor and once Labour Party president Bob Harvey, and Mr Ron Mark, the Mayor of Carterton and, of course, a former New Zealand First MP. Well, she had a lot of strong stuff in that. This is a woman on a mission. And it doesn’t sound kooky. You know, the arguments are fine. The arguments are good. Is it realistic to make New Zealand smoke-free from 2025.

BOB HARVEY – Fmr Waitakere Mayor
Absolutely. Look, I’ve been a lifetime enemy of smoking. I think this country should be the first in the world to actually ban cigarettes.

PAUL Now, the trouble with bans, Bob. Stop right there, because the trouble—

BOB Yeah.

PAUL if I may say, because, you know, she said you’re dealing with addictions. Isn’t the way to stop addiction—?

BOB Give them that amount of time to get off the addiction. You quit, the world is quitting, but I think New Zealand could quit. What a great brand that would be to be the healthiest country in world, Paul. Isn’t that a smart deal? I mean, I’d want to get rid of those stupid lolly bloody things that’s she’s talking about too, because—

Dr BRYCE EDWARDS – Political Scientist
But Tariana was pretty unclear about whether she wants to ban it or just keep on pricing it out of people’s reach.

PAUL Yes.

BRYCE And I think it’s good politics on her part because it’s really playing into the social conservation Maori vote that does want to clamp down on smoking, gambling, alcohol, and she’s lucky because there’s very few opponents to this.

PAUL We should be clear on that. We should be clear on that. She indicated she would like to ban it.

BRYCE Ideally.

PAUL Ideally and make it unlawful, but she didn’t necessarily say—

BOB The bag is too big with gambling. Let’s get gambling out of it. Let’s talk about—

BRYCE Well, no, I think it’s quite related because—

BOB Do you?

BRYCE Absolutely, because increasingly there’s a constituency that does want to clamp down on these social ills, if you like.

PAUL Well, that’s right. Now, that’s most interesting.

RON MARK – Fmr NZ First MP
Look, the question is why is she doing it? Her focus is really about the health and well-being of people. For her, it’s Maori people in particular, because they feature so negatively in her statistics. But my question is – is just a full-frontal attack on smoking alone going to resolve the issues? No, because smoking does start— people start smoking because they are rebellious, for one reason, because it’s fashionable and other reasons.

BRYCE Well, I think—

RON It’s about education, but I think that the problem she’s got to deal with is that it’s also about smoking dope, and I haven’t heard one word about that issue which plagues Maori to hell and back.

PAUL Yeah.

RON It’s also— She touched on gambling and she touched on alcohol, but it has to be a multipronged attack on those issues if it’s going to be effective. And I’ve got to say this to you – I’ve seen people, take Tau Henare, great example – gave up smoking, right? Look at him now – he’s like a balloon. I mean, is he going to die of a smoking-related illness? Probably, a heart attack, no. It’ll be an obesity or a weight-related illness, so why—?

BOB Why is that in the mix?

RON You can’t just solve those problems—

PAUL So are you saying we’ve got to attack on all three at once? Is that what you’re saying?

RON Well, I think if you don’t do the coordinated attack on those things and it’s going to be education, education, education about lifestyle and about choices that makes the difference, not a wholesale attack on smoking alone, because they drive it underground, then you’re—

BOB Take away sponsorship of cigarettes—

RON Then it becomes a black market.

BOB and it worked. We took away— off the racing cars, off from the racing industry, off from ballet and opera and the whole damn thing. Now let’s do the big one. Let’s not be gutless on this. Hey, this could be the—

PAUL Well, look, I can remember sitting over there on the other side of the studio having debate after debate after debate when Helen Clark was trying to get rid of the cigarette sponsorship on the racing cars, when she was trying to get the smoking out of the offices, and to a lot of people it seemed kooky, nanny state. Out of the bars – nanny state.

BOB Out of the RSAs.

PAUL And now you wouldn’t think of smoking in an office.

BRYCE Well, it’s interesting—

PAUL You wouldn’t think of smoking inside at home.

BOB So now the big one. Now the big one – get rid of it out of the country.

BRYCE Ron brings up banning, I mean, dope and issues. And what is really interesting is looking at the contrast—

BOB Distraction.

BRYCE in— well, it might be distraction, but there’s an interesting lesson from— internationally, there’s been a defeat on the war on drugs. Across the world, governments are starting to talk about legitimising or legalising drugs.

BOB Yeah, drugs is one.

BRYCE And I’m not sure that we’re going down the opposite—

RON And, Bob—

PAUL Well, the war on—

RON you’re probably one who would— like Don Brash, would advocate decriminalising—

BOB No, I’m not Don Brash.

RON decriminalising dope. Well, dope is—

BOB Don’t go there. I’m not talking about—

RON No, but it’s the same— you’re talking smoking and you’re talking about social well-being of our populace.

BOB Uh-huh.

RON You can’t—

BOB And the health of the country.

RON You can’t turn the Nelson’s blind eye to the problems of drug addiction, which tobacco is.

PAUL No, but you’re dealing with the gangs there, aren’t you? I mean, you’re dealing with—

RON Well, there you go.

PAUL Too many, but—

RON Why turn a blind eye to the biggest industry that the gangs have, which is dope dealing, which is smoking?

PAUL But, listen, again— But, listen, go back to banning. Any— Where in the world when they’ve tried to ban the booze, like in the States, or the drugs – the war on drugs – I mean, you’ve got some of the most senior respected people in the world now saying the war on drugs that Richard Nixon instigated 30 years ago has failed.

BOB This is a new world, Paul. This is not then—

PAUL Banning never works.

BOB This is now.

RON And tobacco – if you prohibit the sale of tobacco, you will create another black market illicit drug trade.

BOB Oh, what a bogey that is.

RON And if you price it— Look, you’ve got black market tobacco in New Zealand, Bob.

PAUL I imagine it could become a huge thing to smuggle in your fags from Australia.

RON Get back into the world of reality.

BOB The world reality is a healthier world—

RON You’re being idealistic, and ego-social engineering is a thing of the past.

BOB I live in the city, but—

RON We know that.

BRYCE The political dimension of this is very interesting because what we’re seeing from Tariana Turia is a politician in full flight, and she’s looking pretty confident.

BOB She’s good.

BRYCE She’s not a politician that I think is about to—

PAUL Well, that’s right. That was the point I was trying to make about Helen Clark. Everyone got annoyed in those days when Helen was trying to get smoking out of the offices. Now Mrs Turia can come on and speak about actually banning—

BRYCE I think she’s got momentum here.

PAUL And we kind of agree with it.

RON The one thing about Tariana—

PAUL And the other thing is I don’t know anyone who smokes cigarettes who actually wants to smoke cigarettes. That’s the sad thing.

RON I’m a person who enjoys a good pipe after whatever. I mean—

BOB Or a cigar after you’ve had a baby or something like that.

RON How many of you here smoke?

BOB Come on, the world is jumping forward.

RON We all smoked, and we all kicked it.

BOB I think we should cheer her on, actually.

RON Of course you should, but it’s not just about smoking. It’s not smoking tobacco, is it, and—

PAUL One other thing I liked— No, you’ve made your point on that, but I think that’s another discussion. I really do. But she makes the point – you know, what I really liked was she is not frightened of these bloody cigarette companies.

BOB She’s not frightened full stop.

PAUL And again when I go back to those debates we used to have, you know, on the Holmes programme about it, the tobacco lobby would come in and say— the arguments those people come up with are incredibly inventive.

BRYCE Well, it helps her case to put this almost bogeyman of the companies, and that’s—

PAUL But she’s not frightened of them.

BRYCE But what’s interesting is no one’s frightened to disagree with Tariana Turia on this. We don’t see any other political parties actually stepping up and putting forward the rights of smokers or civil rights.

RON It’s an easy political wagon to run. It will always be popular because it’s right. And it was carried first by Tuku Morgan, and it was carried by Hone Harawira, and she’s got the mantle now. And as the minister, she’s got the profile and the ability to drive it. But if you’re focused on the social well-being and the health of your people, to have a myopic focus overly focused on just tobacco is self-defeating in the long run.

PAUL I don’t think she was. I think where she’s focusing on is the smoking—

RON No, I know, but I think the—

PAUL on the gambling and the drinking as well.

RON the whole of the country—

PAUL But there’s I’ve got to leave it.

BOB She’ll win.

PAUL Let’s hope so.

ends

© Scoop Media