Q+A:Paul Holmes interviews Paula Rebstock
 
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 Q + A

PAUL HOLMES INTERVIEWS PAULA REBSTOCK
 
PAUL             Welfare, social development – this week the Government announced a board to oversee the welfare reforms.  A new investment approach to welfare’s been planned, and Social Development Minister Paula Bennett named Paula Rebstock as chairman.  Paula Rebstock also chaired the Welfare Working Group behind many of the Government’s welfare changes.  I interviewed Paula Rebstock and started by asking her how welfare will change with her as the chair of this new board
 
PAULA REBSTOCK – Welfare Reform Board Chairwoman
Well, welfare reform has already started, and the main thing that the board is responsible for is helping Work and Income implement a new investment approach in terms of the way it deals with current beneficiaries.
 
PAUL             And what does that mean?  An investment approach?  You know, if somebody falls out of work, they get paid, end of story.  That’s welfare. 
 
PAULA          Well, that’s welfare as we have known it.  The focus in the future is to take a more active approach.  In other words, we’re going to look at a person’s circumstance, consider how long they’re likely to be on a benefit if we do nothing but to pay them that income support and invest in them to help shorten the period over which they actually need to be in receipt of benefit.
 
PAUL             With respect, can you put that into English?  What do you mean ‘invest in them’?
 
PAULA          We’re going to look at their circumstances.  If they don’t have the required skills and training to get back into work or into work, then we’re going to look at providing that.  If the issues are around—
           
PAUL             Providing the work?
 
PAULA          Providing the training.
 
PAUL             The training.
 
PAULA          We’re going to also look at issues around childcare.  If the children are old enough for the mum or the father to go back to work, and if the access to childcare is the barrier, then we’re going to look at providing that.
           
PAUL             Is welfare going to be tougher to get?  Is that part of your brief?
 
PAULA          For it to be tougher to get.  The rules of entitlement are set in legislation, so as now, we would expect Work and Income to work within those rules.  If someone is entitled to receive a benefit, they will receive it.
 
PAUL             Righto, so this is the big reform.  What is your actual brief?  I mean, where do you fit into the scheme of things?
 
PAULA          The actual brief for the Work and Income board is the government is saying, look, for this to work, Work and Income must have more discretion, they must have more flexibility in what they do and how they do it.  But the quid pro quo for that increased discretion and flexibility is more accountability.
 
PAUL             Right.
 
PAULA          The board is one part of establishing that accountability.
           
PAUL             This the reform board?
 
PAULA          That’s the Work and Income board, yes.
 
PAUL             Right, so but you see, you know, one of the issues that has been raised already this week is why are you needed, for God’s sake?  We have a minister, she’s in charge, she knows what she wants to effect, what changes she wants to implement.  We have a chief executive who knows about Work and Income.  They have managers, experts.  Why do we need you and your coterie?
 
PAULA          Well, I think that the notion around the board is to do a number of things.  One is to help design what this investment approach will look like in practice.  It will help the agency focus on those things that will make the most difference for different individuals.  We’ll set up the accountability measures so the public of New Zealand can hold Work and Income accountable for the money that the government— the new money and the existing money that the government’s going to invest in this approach.
           
PAUL             I suppose what I was asking was where you fit into the chain of command?  To whom do you answer?  Work and Income or the minister?
 
PAULA          We answer to joint ministers – the Minister of Social Development and also the Minister of Finance.
 
PAUL             So you’re kind of a check on Work and Income?
 
PAULA          We are there to hold them to account for what they are there to do.  We’re there to challenge them, but we’re also there to support them and their chief executive to deliver on the government’s reforms.
 
PAUL             Are you there  in a way, though, when you say to keep an eye on Work and Income to see they don’t get too free and easy with the public money?  Is that kind of what we mean?
 
PAULA          I don’t think that it’s about free and easy.  It’s about maximising the return on the investment the New Zealand public is making in assisting people while they’re on a benefit and helping them to get off of it.
           
PAUL             Can I just finish by saying I think the worry for some commentators and for some people is the word ‘corporatisation’ has been used and so forth.  The worry is that you are perceived as being on the wrong side of the ideological divide, that you’ve somehow applied business models to a system that defies it, that you don’t understand beneficiaries and people who have a tough road in life.  What do you say to that?
 
PAULA          Well, I think the purpose of these reforms is to give people who are on benefits a better chance in life.  To date, even when we had high levels of economic growth, we saw people staying on benefits for very long periods of time.  It was concentrated on a very small group of the population, but a growing group.  The reason we are there is to change that, to change the odds for those individuals, to give them a difference chance going forward.  If we’re successful, their futures will be bright and also the taxpayer will have greater accountability for the money that’s being spent and invested.  And hopefully over time we’ll see an increasing proportion of working-age people in this country supporting themselves and able to live their lives the way they choose to.
 
PAUL             Do you think it’ll really work?
 
PAULA          Yes, I do.  I think we can’t continue doing what we’ve done, because it clearly wasn’t working.  It didn’t work in good times, and it didn’t work in bad times.  We’ve got to try a different way.

ENDS

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