Q+A: Education Minister Nikki Kaye interviewed by Corin Dann
Q+A: Education Minister Nikki Kaye interviewed by
Corin Dann
Education Minister Nikki
Kaye says including digital learning and computer coding as
part of the school curriculum won’t come at the expense of
other core subjects.
This week Nikki Kaye announced a $40m package aimed at updating the school curriculum to enhance digital learning.
‘The point I would make is while it’s going alongside everything else, it’s not just separate. So if you learn computational thinking, there is mathematics involved in that, in algorithms. So there are skills that are transferable. If you think about young people learning numeracy and literacy, that helps when they’re learning science, because they need to use statistics.’
Speaking on TVNZ 1’s Q+A programme, Nikki Kaye told Corin Dann it would be negligent if we didn’t look ahead.
‘The nature of the responsibility as minister of education is to do exactly that, to say, ‘Where are the jobs going to be in the future? What are the skills that we need for the 21st century?’
Nikki Kaye told Corin Dann, we have to continue to do more in maths.
‘So we know at year eight that there is a slip in terms of mathematics, so we’ve said that we will get 80% of our young people by 2021 in year eight, in terms of mathematics. That’s about putting more professional development in; it’s about a range of things across communities of learning, looking at the granular detail of those children. Now that we have national standards, we know where they are. We are putting interventions in to help them. We certainly do have to have the accelerator on.’
Please find the full transcript attached.
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Q + A
Episode 17
NIKKI
KAYE
Interviewed by Corin
Dann
CORIN Minister, thank you
very much for joining us this morning. Big changes this
week, big changes in terms of the curriculum for our kids
– bringing in the idea of coding, bringing in the ideas
around digital and computational thinking. What is it that
you are imagining a student leaving high school, say, in 10
years’ time will be able to do with this
change?
NIKKI They
are going to be able to be at the forefront of creating
solutions, whether it’s in science and mathematics, so
they will be directing the technology. And we currently have
a situation where many young people in our schools are using
technology, but they are not at the forefront of designing
that.
CORIN All
of them?
NIKKI Some
of them are coding, absolutely. We have organisations like
Code Club. You’ve got Frances Valintine in terms of Mind
Lab. There are a number of young people that are just
charging ahead in this area, but the scale of what we need
to do is very
significant.
CORIN So
why do we need all kids to learn this
stuff?
NIKKI Because
if you look at what is occurring and what the predictions
are in terms of where the jobs will be, there is an estimate
that 40% of jobs within 10 to 15 years may be automated. So
the concept that we want young people not just using this
technology but being able to create the latest technology is
actually crucial in terms of the jobs of the
future.
CORIN But
here’s the thing – why are we trying to predict the
future? We don’t have any idea what’s going to be the
technology in 10, 20 years’ time. Why aren’t we just
sticking to the core subjects, get them right, and trusting
that the kids will be okay if their maths is
good?
NIKKI Corin,
I think we would be negligent if we didn’t look ahead. The
nature of the responsibility as minister of education is to
do exactly that, to say, ‘Where are the jobs going to be
in the future? What are the skills that we need for the 21st
century?’
CORIN And
do you know what they are? You can’t possibly
know.
NIKKI Right
across the world, countries are having this conversation. We
are not the only country to be moving in this area. It’s
very clear there’s actually quite a common argument around
what are basic 21st-century skills. We know already. If you
talk to the ICT industry, they are screaming out for
graduates with some of these
skills.
CORIN What
are those basic 21st-century skills, then? Because I would
argue that, nowadays, most kids have already sussed out how
to use electronic devices before they’ve even got to
school.
NIKKI They
might be able to use the electronic devices, but they
certainly aren’t necessarily the ones that are creating
the latest game that’s going to affect mathematics.
They’re not the ones that are at the forefront of creating
the latest robot that is going to help out in science and
medicine.
CORIN But
is it a question of—? Those kids will find that pathway
anyway, won’t they? You are just trying to get more kids
to do that, is that what it
is?
NIKKI We
believe that every young person should understand the basics
of computational thinking and be able to design new
technologies.
CORIN So,
just roll that back – what is computational
thinking?
NIKKI Computational
thinking – it’s basically being able to instruct new
technology but also solve problems, whether it is designing
a new piece of technology or debugging it. There are some
basic principles that are set out in the curriculum. A lot
of people have been involved in this, from education and ICT
leaders. I do think it is quite world-leading in that
we’ve made it very flexible so it can be future-proof for
the next technology, whether it’s artificial intelligence.
And I think it is important that young people realise— I
mean, if you look at the changes that have happened even in
20 years in terms of technology, it’s not just about the
jobs. Our society is changing, and young people need to be
able to navigate
that.
CORIN And
there’s an incredible amount of anxiety about this.
Because I’m a parent – I’ve got three boys. They love
their screens. And I think a lot of parents can associate
with this. On the one hand, they can see the advantages of
this. They know that technology— The kids love it. They
get it. But they are also anxious, because kids spend so
much time on screens, and they are thinking, ‘Well, hang
on, they’re going to go to school now, and now it’s
going to be even more normalised.’ Is there not a danger
that you are going to cut out other parts of important
learning?
NIKKI I
think there’s a couple of things. Firstly, there is a good
amount of time online and a bad amount of time
online.
CORIN And
it is a battle for parents, though. What can we do about
it?
NIKKI Well, I
think there’s a couple of things. We recently released
screen guidelines that said in terms of recreational time
should be two hours. In my view, technology is moving in a
sense that we may not have
screens—
CORIN Sorry,
two hours a
day?
NIKKI That’s
recreational. That’s recreational screen time. In terms of
in our schools, most teachers that I talk to, they actually
are understanding that there is a lot that doesn’t
actually need to happen in terms of the device. We’ve got
video conferencing in classrooms now. I think there’s
going to be a shift in terms of technology to voice, and so
it’s not just about the screen. It’s more about what
that young person is
learning.
CORIN But
every child from high school, pretty much, has a screen,
don’t they? Their own personalised device, or is required
to, pretty
much.
NIKKI We do
have high proliferation of devices in New Zealand, and I
think the more that we can do to educate young people –
but also our teachers and our parents – about what is a
good amount of time online is a good thing. I’ve actually
asked the chief science advisers this week to do a piece of
work around what the impact of technology is on other
skills. So I think it is a very important debate to have.
But we shouldn’t stop enabling young people to have basic
skills that are going to ensure they have a job in the
future, because we’re worried about that. We’ve got to
do both.
CORIN What
goes from the curriculum to make way for
this?
NIKKI Look,
there will be lots of conversations about the curriculum in
the future. From my perspective, the other thing that we can
do to enable teachers to have the time to be able to deliver
this is reduce their workload in areas like administration.
I launched a project this week alongside the curriculum
changes to say, ‘What can we do to reduce that
administration?’ I also put $2.9 million in this project
to ensure that we get NCEA online if we reduce the time that
they are spending on
assessments.
CORIN So,
teachers will get plenty of support. Maybe they get some
efficiency improvements and don’t have to spend so much
time. But what goes out of the curriculum? Do you have to
make
way?
NIKKI We’ll
continue to review the curriculum, but my point would be you
either take an approach which is ‘something goes out’,
or you move in a direction that says, ‘What can we
possibly do to free teachers up?’
CORIN So you’re
going to squeeze this in alongside everything
else?
NIKKI The
point I would make is while it’s going alongside
everything else, it’s not just separate. So if you learn
computational thinking, there is mathematics involved in
that, in algorithms. So there are skills that are
transferable. If you think about young people learning
numeracy and literacy, that helps when they’re learning
science, because they need to use
statistics.
CORIN Sure, but parents
watching this will be worried that— Is this going to mean
less English, less history, less other subjects? Can you
give that
guarantee?
NIKKI I
can give that guarantee that we are absolutely focused on
making sure that we invest in all of those areas. That’s
why the recent professional development changes— And
that’s why we actually announced an additional $24
million. We could’ve just gone and re-prioritised numeracy
and literacy, PLD – professional development. We didn’t
do that. We put an extra $24 million so that we could make
sure that we are absolutely continuing to lift achievement
in those
areas.
CORIN Have
we got the maths skills in this country to be world leaders
in this sort of technology? I mean, our PISA— The
international rankings, they’re not great. There are not
terrible, but they’re not
great.
NIKKI We
have to continue to do more in maths, and that’s why both
through the professional development changes where we’ve
now got a number of academics assisting with the design of
that PLD. Through the funding review, we’ll be looking at
where we can help more in terms of those that are most
disadvantaged. We’ve got a range of things in train that,
in my view, will lead to achievement
raising.
CORIN But
the issue is that, if you look at the New Zealand
Initiative’s findings, that the way in which we have been
teaching mathematics is arguably not really making much of a
difference.
NIKKI And
that’s why these professional development changes are
crucial. But also now we have communities of learning, which
are clusters of schools that are down at the
granular—
CORIN What
does professional development training
mean?
NIKKI Professional
development is a range of courses that assist
with—
CORIN Upskilling
teachers?
NIKKI Absolutely,
so assist with teacher practice. But we also have invested
in a range of skills like the PaCT tool, which enable
teachers to go down to that granular detail around a child
and look at the specific competencies in
maths.
CORIN Why
don’t you pay maths teachers
more?
NIKKI We’ve
actually increased teacher salaries by about 18%, and I
think people will always argue that. From my perspective,
you’ve got to do a range of things in terms of the system
to improve achievement. That’s everything from investing
in PLD; it’s the funding review; it’s also working very
carefully around the achievement
challenge.
CORIN The
OECD this month said in its report our maths is poor; it’s
a barrier to better performance in science and engineering.
Do you believe that? I know Bill English mentioned it in his
speech at the weekend that maths was a priority. What are
you going do about
it?
NIKKI Well,
I think there are a couple of things. We announced
recently the Better Public Service target. Because it’s
about looking younger. So we know at year eight that there
is a slip in terms of mathematics, so we’ve said that we
will get 80% of our young people by 2021 in year eight, in
terms of mathematics. That’s about putting more
professional development in; it’s about a range of things
across communities of learning, looking at the granular
detail of those children. Now that we have national
standards, we know where they are. We are putting
interventions in to help them. We certainly do have to have
the accelerator
on.
CORIN At
its core, though, the New Zealand Initiative basically said
we moved away from rote learning and we need to get back to
it.
NIKKI I
think there’s going to be a range of conversations in
terms of how we lift achievement. We’re doing more than
ever, and we’ve actually got some significant results,
particularly around Maori and Pasifika achievement. When we
know where those kids are and we put the resources there and
we put the interventions in, we lift
achievement.
CORIN New
Zealand Herald did quite an interesting article last year, I
think, Kirsty Johnson, about NCEA and those results. You
have got some good results, in terms of NCEA and
disadvantaged groups, Pacific Island students, Maori
students. But the point I think she made, and the New
Zealand Herald made, was a lot of those students are going
into vocational subjects and weren’t being pushed, perhaps
harder, into some of the subjects like maths and those sorts
of things. Does that concern
you?
NIKKI There
are a couple of things. The first thing is under the
previous government, thousands more Maori and Pasifika
children, young people, left without basic NCEA
qualifications. So we can be very proud that they are
leaving with qualification. Do we want to make sure that
they’ve got multiple pathways? In fact I was in Northland
last night having that conversation. Yes, we do. And I think
if you look at the Digital Fluency package this week, and
you look at what people like Pat Snedden are doing in
Manaiakalani, we have an opportunity to ensure that young
Maori and young Pasifika students have much more diverse
pathways, and that’s what this week is also
about.
CORIN It’s
a poverty issue, though, isn’t it? Those students growing
up in lower socio-economic groups are going to suffer from a
digital divide, aren’t they? They’re not going to have
the same devices; they’re not going to have access to
Wi-Fi at home; they’re not going to have access to
printers. It’s just going to increase that divide, isn’t
it?
NIKKI No, I
don’t believe that. Because I think we have an absolute
moral responsibility to continue to invest in those young
people. If you look in the announcement I made this week, $6
million that are focused on those students that are
particularly disadvantaged. What people like Pat Snedden
have shown is that by the right investments in terms of
connectivity, the right investments around people, these
young Maori and young Pasifika students can do incredibly
well and be way ahead of a number of their peers,
actually.
CORIN One
of the other areas of digital is the online learning. Are
you absolutely committed to this idea that we let children,
effectively, do their entire school career online at home?
NIKKI Well, what
we’ve done is we’ve passed enabling legislation for
community of online learning providers. I’ve said we’ve
got to consult with the sector around that. But what I have
also said is I see it more being used in particular subject
areas where schools haven’t had access – that school in
Invercargill that might want young people to learn Mandarin.
I think language is a particular area whereby we want to do
better as a
country.
CORIN It
hasn’t worked very well overseas, has
it?
NIKKI It
hasn’t worked well overseas in some countries because it
hasn’t had the right regulatory framework around it. And
the whole conversation of whether they’ll be registered
teachers, what support will be around that, how much will be
online versus how much might be face time – all of those
policy discussions will continue to happen.
CORIN Because
the big worry – and can you give an assurance
that wouldn’t be some sort of – to coin a horrible
phrase – dumping ground for difficult students with
behavioural issues that schools don’t want to deal with,
and it’s like, ‘Oh, you can just go do it online.’
NIKKI That
is absolutely not the intention, because actually, what
we’ve learnt with all of the special educational learning
support changes is that we need to give those young people
more support than ever before, and that won’t be just
about them sitting online; it will be about them having a
range of other things such as behavioural support, other
interventions.
CORIN A
couple of questions that came through to us on Facebook for
you. One of them is a lot of concern about pay rates for
support staff and their money, I guess, coming from a
discretionary fund for that the school has, is there just
simply not enough money for support staff? And also not a
lot of support for them in terms of their employment
conditions. They’re very worried.
NIKKI A
couple of things – so the support workers and the support
staff, they’re different groups – but the support staff,
in terms of teacher aides, in the budget, we obviously
announced a 1.3%
increase.
CORIN And
schools have got to fund that, though, don’t
they?
NIKKI So
we announced a 1.3% increase in terms of operational grants,
which is there to assist any pay
increases.
CORIN So
there’s a pay rise coming for them, but the schools then
have to meet that from that extra 1.3%. Is that
right?
NIKKI That’s
correct. But if you look, over time, we’ve only increased
operational grants by about 16%, I think, and the CPI has
been 11%. So we do pay negotiations every couple of
years.
CORIN They’re
not exactly paid megabucks, though, are
they?
NIKKI No,
they’re not. And the reality is there are pay equity
claims that are being discussed. I can’t go into that at
the moment because obviously there’s a range of very
formal processes around that. But what I can say is we’ve
continued through the collective bargaining process to,
obviously, increase those wages. But there is a conversation
that is
occurring.
CORIN So
putting the pay equity issue aside, do they need to be paid
more?
NIKKI Well,
again, we are paying them more. I think the pay equity is an
important piece of work because that is going to look at
whether there has been systemic discrimination.
CORIN One
more question from Facebook – and this is around the
Education Council – I guess the body that registers
teachers. Chris Hipkins has a private member’s bill which
would enable teachers to be able to elect members to that
board again. Would you consider supporting
that?
NIKKI Look,
we’ve said we wouldn’t, and I’ll give you a couple of
reasons for it. Yesterday I confirmed that the government is
going to transfer $200 million to this body. And so it is
different to other professional bodies. It’s going to have
responsibility for a large amount of taxpayer
funds.
CORIN What,
and teachers can’t be trusted to be on the
board?
NIKKI Well,
I think there needs to be the ability to have some
independent people. Obviously there is a process that has
previously occurred that covered representatives in terms of
those interviews. I’m keen to discuss with the unions how
we run that process
again.
CORIN What’s
wrong with one or two teachers on that board to offer some
insight from the
coalface?
NIKKI There
are educational leaders on the board. The question is –
how are they appointed? But from my perspective, I’m keen
to continue the discussions with the unions. But what I
would say is that this entity is an independent entity, from
a statutory perspective, but it’s containing a lot of
taxpayer funds, and that’s what Cabinet have agreed. I
would say the history hasn’t been… The whole reason we
changed it from its existing structure to the Education
Council was there wasn’t great things occurring
there.
CORIN One
last question. The decile system changes. We’ve talked
about this a lot over the years on Q+A. Are you brave enough
to announce these before the election? Because that’ll be
controversial. Some schools will miss out on funding now,
won’t
they?
NIKKI It
depends how you design the system. So the first thing is I
expect to give an update before the election. But as I’ve
said before, I’m not a fan of the decile system. I
actually completely… I don’t like that fact that schools
are labelled as a result of parents’ income. I’ve met
many young people who have felt that they’re not good
enough as a result of their decile rating, and I think
that’s
wrong.
CORIN So
you’ll put your neck out before the election, and you will
say, ‘This is what we will do if
re-elected’?
NIKKI Well,
again, I can’t get ahead of Cabinet. I’ll definitely
give an update on the funding review, but as I’ve said
before, if at all possible, if I can work a way through to
find something that is suitable to be able to replace it,
then I will do that. But I’ve got to work with my Cabinet
colleagues around
that.
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