Rhodes Scholar calls for better political system to engage young people

Author Max Harris says New Zealand needs to introduce civics education in schools to allow young people to learn more about politics and encourage them to vote.

The 28-year-old’s book ‘The New Zealand Project’ will be published later this month and he told Jessica Mutch on Q+A this morning it was time for a fresher political debate to engage more people in the process.

The deeper things are a bit harder – around respecting young people’s voices and maybe doing politics in a way that appeals to people more,” he said. “One way we can get there is through talking about values a little bit more, and in particular, values of care, community and creativity that I think connect to the heart as well as the head and connect to people’s everyday experiences.”

He said people often talked about young people not being engaged but he did not agree with that entirely.

“Young people are engaged in lots of other ways – on social media, through blogs, through music, through street art,” he said. “Politicians need to also look at themselves and ask whether the political system’s appealing to young people.” “There’s a lot of throwaway talk about listening. I’m not sure how much young people really feel listened to by politicians at the moment.”

Max Harris’s book ‘The New Zealand Project’ is published on April 11 by Bridget Williams Books.
http://bwb.co.nz/books/new-zealand-project

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Please find attached the full transcript of the interview and here’s the Link:

Q + A
Episode 4
MAX HARRIS
Interviewed by JESSICA MUTCH

JESSICA I want to start off by talking about your personal story, because it’s pretty remarkable. You had heart surgery, and while you were waiting for that to happen, you just decided you’d do this little exam that is probably one of the most difficult in the world – no biggie, really Tell me about that. What were you thinking?

MAX Well, I suppose, getting this heart problem coming up was quite unexpected, and I had planned to come back to New Zealand about two years ago. And actually, I had to push my flights back. And so I was in Oxford; I’d heard about this very strange, unusual exam, and I thought, while I wait around for the surgery, why not give it a shot?

JESSICA Because most people would think, ‘Oh, I need to live it up large. This makes me a bit nervous.’ You thought, ‘No, no, I’ll sit a really hard exam.’

MAX I mean, the heart problem meant that I couldn’t really live it up large, as much as other people might have. But, yeah no, I guess I thought there was a very tiny chance that something good might’ve come from it. The fellowship gives you seven years to do any kind of research that you want. And even though I didn’t really think I was going to get through the exam, I thought it was worth a go, and to my surprise, I got an interview and thought the interview went very badly. The interview’s in front of about 50 Oxford academics wearing gowns and grilling you on your exam. And I thought at the end of that interview, ‘Back to New Zealand now.’ And then surprisingly, about a week later, got told that I passed.

JESSICA Because that experience with your health – how did that affect how you chose the topic of New Zealand politics? Because you were allowed to choose anything you liked. What attracted you to NZ politics, apart from being a Kiwi, of course.

MAX Well, I guess I did think quite a lot about mortality around then. So there was a two to three percent mortality risk of the surgery that I was going through. And there was talk about underlying conditions that might shorten my life expectancy. So, yeah, I really thought that if my life might be shorter, how can I make a difference on issues that I care about? And I remember how, talking to an early audience about the book, and I told them how the one issue I really wanted to focus on was New Zealand politics, they laughed. But to me, it was sort of obvious, you know? I grew up in New Zealand. I was really lucky to benefit from public education here, from great teachers at university, and I felt a kind of responsibility to give back, and I want, like many young New Zealanders, for politics to be better. So it didn’t actually take a lot of time to think about it, and luckily I got a book contract and got started talking to young New Zealanders and others; a couple of years later, I managed to finish this book.

JESSICA Because one of the points of the book is these disengaged voters, the Kiwis or young people, especially, who are choosing not to vote.

-CLIP PLAYS-

JESSICA I don’t know – maybe a few MPs have a little bit of ‘swag’ in our parliament at the moment. But, look, we look at that clip; what do you make of that and some of the comments that some of our young people are saying there?

MAX Yeah, I think it shows there are lots of reasons why people feel disengaged and actually why politics has disengaged from young people. So I think a lot of people feel that politicians don’t represent them – a lot of young people – and I think a lot of people don’t like how politics is done, and I saw that in talking to people for the book. So one young person told me, ‘It seems like politicians are experts in self-promotion, in cutting people down.’ And another told me that politicians just seem like they’re squabbling with each other rather than focusing on issues that matter.

JESSICA But don’t they have to take a little bit of responsibility now? It’s now easier than ever to get in contact with your local MP, to see them, through social media. Don’t they have to say, ‘Okay, right, I’ll read up on this. I’ll become interested.’ How much of that is a balance?

MAX It’s a two-way street, I think. So it is a responsibility to be involved as much as possible. We don’t have civics education in New Zealand, and I talk about that in the book, which would make it easy to empower people to understand the political system. And the other thing to say, of course, is we’re talking a little bit about voting, but young people are engaged in lots of other ways – on social media, through blogs, through music, through street art. And so I think people are finding ways to express their opinions, and they are worried. And politicians need to also look at themselves and ask whether the political system’s appealing to young people.

JESSICA Are they just a bit lazy as well?

MAX I don’t think that’s true for most young people – and not just young people in my circle. I think people have a lot going on in their lives, and there are some deeper issues going on here as well, which I get to in my book. I think a lot of young people feel disempowered. I think culturally, as a country, we maybe don’t value the voices of young people enough.

JESSICA How do we change that, then? Because a lot of political parties are saying this so-called ‘missing million’ – the million voters who don’t come out on election day – they want to tap into that. How do they do that?

MAX Well, there are some specific things we can do, like introducing civics education in school, which would allow people to learn more about politics and encourage them to vote. But the deeper things are a bit harder – around respecting young people’s voices and maybe doing politics in a way that appeals to people more. And in my book, I suggest that one way we can get there is through talking about values a little bit more, and in particular, values of care, community and creativity that I think connect to the heart as well as the head and connect to people’s everyday experiences.

JESSICA Because this idea of civic education – what about lowering the age of voting to 16? What about online voting? Would those things help engage young people in the political process, do you think?

MAX I think those are all proposals that need to be looked into. I focus on civics education in the book, because that’s been done in lots of other places pretty effectively. But I think we should also be considering using online processes, given how much of our lives are online now.

JESSICA Is that just giving young people a spark? ‘This is what happens, this is how you do it, and this is why you should care.’ Is that what they should get at school, do you think?

MAX Yeah, that’s right. It’s a spark. But we also need more than just that spark. We need young people to feel like their voices actually count, their voices actually matter, and people are listening. And that’s something else I think we need more of in politics. There’s a lot of throwaway talk about listening. I’m not sure how much young people really feel listened to by politicians at the moment.

JESSICA Because one of the other points in the book is this whole idea that the value has been drained out of politics. What do you mean by that?

MAX I mean a few things. I mean that politics has become a bit technical. It often seems like a numbers game, something that is quite technocratic.

JESSICA Like polls, do you mean?

MAX No, not just polls. I mean, partly that, but also that a lot of the discussion seems to be around trade-offs and pros and cons, and all of that is important. But we also need to make value choices about what priority areas are in politics, and when politics becomes so technocratic, we sort of lose that values edge. That’s one part of it. I also think we’ve lost a general sense of direction in politics about what the end goals of politics are. It’s become a sort of muddle-through process a lot of the time. And I’m sure politicians are often motivated by really noble ideals, but I don’t think that’s always communicated to people. And the other thing I talk about in the book is I think that there’s been a rise in self-interestedness and selfishness in the last 20 to 30 years.

JESSICA Hasn’t that always been there, though, a little bit, in politics?

MAX It’s hard to say, and I mean actually going beyond politics, in the society we have as a whole. And I think that’s rebounded back on to politics, and I think it’s meant that politicians are appealing less to what’s good for the community, to thinking about other people, and are focusing more on what’s in it for ourselves.

JESSICA Because some of the MPs who may be watching this morning may be thinking, ‘Hang on a second. I do have values. I came into politics to make a difference.’

MAX Of course, yeah.

JESSICA Do you think it’s perhaps not values that match your own? Do you think it’s that? What do you say to those guys?

MAX I think a lot of politicians do come in with really high ideals. I think the way politics is done doesn’t always allow those ideals to be carried through. You heard one young person on your clip say that they didn’t feel like politicians are following through on promises, following through on values, perhaps.

JESSICA Is that MMP, do you think?

MAX I don’t think it’s just MMP.

JESSICA You think it’s a core value system?

MAX Yeah, I think so. And of course, politicians have a range of values. But I’d like to see politicians talking about those more openly, and not just talking about stale values that we’ve heard a lot of. I mean, we have heard lots of references to fairness or to freedom or opportunity, but I’d like to hear a fresher debate, and that’s why I try to focus on values like care and community and even love in the book, because I think these are new ways of thinking about politics.

JESSICA What would your ideal political party look like, and are some of the political parties in parliament at the moment doing that at the moment?

MAX The book isn’t really just about parliamentary politics, and so I don’t have in mind an ideal political party. I have more in mind, perhaps, an ideal political culture where everyone feels empowered, where we’re talking about politics from a values base, and we are maybe coming to different conclusions from a starting point of caring about community, creativity, values like those. But where we’re clearly talking about, yeah, our starting points and our end points and where people feel included and everyone feels like they’re listened to and are able to have a say.

JESSICA Would you like a turn yourself at some point? Is politics in your future?

MAX No. I genuinely don’t want that as part of my future. This is a book that’s designed to—

JESSICA You seem very passionate about that?

MAX No, I mean, this book is about changing political culture collectively, and I think we need to get people interested in a broader way and not just as individuals. And so part of the book is trying to create a movement outside of politics that can speak to politicians, to push them in a more values-driven direction. And I hope really great people go into politics. I hope people driven by values go into politics, and that’s part of building a better politics, but I think it’s not the whole story.

JESSICA We’ll have to leave it there, but thank you very much for your time. Really appreciate it.

MAX Thanks a lot.

Transcript provided by Able. www.able.co.nz

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